I'm a second gen lawyer (yes I'm aware that we are villainized all across the profession) and unfortunately, everyone attributes my success to the fact that I have a father who is also a lawyer. That is not true. There are a good lot of us that have worked hard and made the most of the resources we have. I admit that there is some privilege in the initial stages, but after that, we're on our own and if we don't work hard, we won't be successful either. I've not had it easier, and I too have done my fair share of hard work at law school, during competitions and during my internships. It is kind of unfair to downplay the efforts of those who genuinely work hard just because they have some in the profession Stop attacking all of us under the garb of nepotism.
well, if you are talking about litigation then yes you have it much easier because the most difficult part is getting clients in the start which you already have so my point is that someone with equal amount of talent, diligence etc may not be sucessful where you may be sucessful because you have your father to help you out with getting clients in the initial stage that is not to say that your talent is any less than someone who is a first gen lawyer
Because - Judiciary is not a joke. It's not your family property.
Senior Advocate Designations and HC/SC Appointments are overwhelmingly given to those who's Daddy/Mommy is an Influencial Lawyer, Senior Advocate or Judge.
Don't tell that you are naturally talented and you were born with an SC Digest in your hand in the neonatal ward.
Nepotism in Judiciary is unforgivable. It's 100 times worse than nepotism in Bollywood or a political party.
Because - here, nepotism is 1000% with literally no accountability. You don't suffer like Businesses/Political Parties who collapsed because of nepotism.
Now coming to lower Judiciary,
You guys (nepo kids) always want more time from the judge than a fresher advocate. Force favorable Verdicts. Even local bar associations - you strangle it with your family network making it tough for a non nepo lawyer.
My dear friend, the preceding generations of first gen lawyers also had the same outlook and hence its gotten this bad! Rather, its this very same outlook that’s allowed the situation to reach this far!
If even now, after all the changes our country has gone through since 1991, all first generation lawyers remain scared of the nepotistic cabal of second+third generation lawyers (like the Sibbals, Chandarchuds of the world) to such an extent that we are not even willing to acknowledge such cabals politics and overreach in the judiciary, how is this right at all?
And please also think whether such silence will strengthen the legal world of India or weaken it!
rohintion nariman is son of fali sam nariman,totally agree he is a second generation lawyer,but just look at his knowledge and judgements. he is known as one of the lions in entire legal fraternity.
ram jhetmalanis son is not at all famous as his father.
its nothing about first or second generation its all about HUNGER
For your kind info, HMJ Nariman (as he then was) was a third generation lawyer. Father of Shri Fali Nariman was an eminent lawyer who was instrumental in drafting initial policies and incorporation of New India Assurance Companies as soon as they landed in India from Rangoon.
Not just designations and power. Infact, the cases actually end up on their table. Only a select few are superstars of the Bar (like in bollywood) rest are struggling.
In fact, the families are very well connected. I can't disclose much but I have been witness to a SC judge singing happy birthday to a 4th year old grad at GLC mumbai. Everybody in GLC knows how well connected some families are.
For Mahesh Jethmalani - just wait and watch. Senior Jethmalani passed away recently. Maybe our kids will know more about Mahesh ji. Ram Ji was a dominant player who would overshadow his son even. Such a great personality.
But it’s the second/third gen lawyers who starve us by force and make us fall in line for their own benefit! Should any first gen lawyer raise his voice against the open nepotism, such first gen is forced to leave the legal market.
Now please elaborate what happens if you starve a human - he dies!
All second/third gen lawyers are guilty of murder. Murder of the professional careers of 1000s (if not lacs) of first gen lawyers who were forced to walk away or stay down!
And before you start comparing the Narimans to any normal family do realise the economic cost one must bare to succeed in the legal profession!! Not all families from Bharat are as well of as all families from India (Tier 1/2 cities of India).
True, just take a look at Allahabad hc. Here you'll find even the most third class lawyers went on to become judges directly because their daddies were judges. Also we had one muslim judge Justice Imtiyaz Murtaza who runs his own ponzy law college which sells degrees here at lucknow. When he was a sitting judge he got made his own nephew the Government Advocate of the state. His nephew Rishad Murtaza was a very young lawyer who became GA because of nepotism eventually his name was send for elevation but it was never confirmed. Good riddance I would say.
While there is definitely an infrastructure and practise advantage for next generation kids, I equally think this "nepotism" tag has become an excuse for lazy and unprofessional lawyers to whine about. More litigators have made it big not because of their dads but because of their mentors in the profession. Salve and Gopal Subramaniam are not "nepo" kids even though one dad was a politician and the other an AoR who died many years before the latter joined the profession. But they both had Soli who promoted them in a massive way. Rohinton had his own father and Venkatachaliah. Mukul Rohatgi had Sabharwal and Jaitley. Maninder, Pratibha, Ranjit Kumar had Jaitley. Shyam Divan built his own practise in Bombay completely independent of his father who was in Delhi. Viswanathan and Gopal Sankaranarayanan had KKV. None of these (except maybe Rohinton) fit the "nepo" definition. But yes, if you are fortunate to get a great mentor, you can definitely make a niche for yourself. Stop listening to negative voices who use this "nepo" tag to discourage you.
About salve - he really was brought around stalwarts of bombay bar. Infact, it was palkhivala ji himself who suggested salve to become an advocate.
Not saying he has not got brains. Well, we all have and can work hard. Cases toh laao. BCI ne ban kar rakha hai solicitation of work. We sell professional services, not banana which is in high demand .
One of my superseniors is a first gen like me. During 2nd wave we got connected due as me and my friends were arranging meds , oxygen and bedding for everyone. He has now 5+ years of experience in HC. I was in District Courts under a senior.
I asked him how he is fairing, & what can I do to jump to HC and make a living. He broke down. He had dreams like everyone else to argue case on merit , get recognition and make a living from law. Early on, he got married to a girl whose father is retd. DGP. So, he was paying rent of a upper middle class flat and an office. It was hard for him to pay for them . Then covid came and situation worsened. He told me that when he would visit district court he would sit with some seniors at evening to enjoy tea (including my senior). He would do so to gain some insight into law and wisdom. Later on, he would come to know that one of those seniors was found saying "kaam ki Bheekh Maangne aate hain chamber me" (people visit chamber to beg for work). That day he stopped idolizing people and realized that we all are flawed. Thanks to him to give me correct perspective otherwise I would have been running around chasing seniors too. Better to sell Tea and earn respectable ₹400 daily than to get humiliated in name of origin, clan , family.
Social Justice , Equality of status and opportunity and non-discrimination are just cute phrases in constitution.
About Chai-wala earning more than Lawyers, Let me add some info.
Here's the truth : - in Most developed countries , blue collar workers are earning more or equal to CEOs!
That's just economic equality equalization. India maybe on that path (I am no economist. I will let economists add their perspective). The 'Education Dream' is bursting from middle class families. Let me add more info.
1. So, my first cousin is an IIT-B Grad. He graduated sometime during 2005-2007 I guess. He is in top positions in Credit Suisse (Londoner). His salary is through the roof ! (But so are the expenses). His wife is an IITian too. Similar Salary. Couple recently had a child. The Baby Sitter's retainer was half the salary of the wife. Can't disclose his name as he is well known in IIT Circles and his name pops up in google search suggestions.
2. If you watch Vlogs in youtube of Indians in Canada , USA , New Zealand then you will know that people are providing services as Cab Drivers and working 2 jobs and earning almost same as some CEOs.
3. Back in 2010-2011 when Radio Mirchi and feature fone FM was popular, I use to listen to it . I was using Samsung corby. So, in a radio live the RJ told how his friend who is working in Corporate MNC in Gurgoan told te RJ about 'Sutta / Corn' joint near his office who is making good money. It was in 2010 !
Chalo let me tell you more. Majority of law students in country are not from NLUs and not from big 10 cities . So, for them question of joining law firm is out of question (including me). We have 2 options:-
1. Govt exams 2. Litigate
We know about #1. Now often we even dont find a good senior advocate to join. It is based on contacts and recommendation as far as i know. We spend 5 years learning ideals of law only to face the harsh reality that
"oh, you are not rich, so no place for you. Your dad is not a big shot who will he call?"
Now you will play the "merit card". I will et Avani ji Bansal reply to your merit card as she is much more educated than me . She is the right person to reply as she is a scholar herself (All gold medals in HNLU, Oxford , Harvard)
There is nothing called as an "unchartered territory" for a second generation lawyer. Everything is already in place, including a mentor to guide you. You are tutored and spoon fed unlike any other junior. The bar and the bench favor a second generation lawyer in the same proportion. Perhaps, the person on the bench may happen to be a peer of father of the second generation lawyer. There is no financial pressure and this gives him an unparalalled advantage. A second generation lawyer should just stay put. If he has the enthusiasm to grow, he will nilly willy.
For a first generation lawyer, there is so much of uncertainty. I pity those who depend on parents even to get a vehicle to travel to the court in the first five years. Success is not guaranteed even after five years, because by then you just find your feet and get to know your domain. Thereafter, the actual labour begins.
All the best all the first gen lawyers who intend to litigate.
including a mentor to guide you. You are tutored and spoon fed unlike any other junior
I was heckled , ridiculed and gaslighted by my senior. He would ''fake'' that he has bare act by heart and would cover up when he would be caught forgetting provisions. I will write a big thread on reality of litigation soon.
Quote:
Perhaps, the person on the bench may happen to be a peer of father of the second generation lawyer.
Very true Quote:
I pity those who depend on parents even to get a vehicle to travel to the court in the first five years. Success is not guaranteed even after five years, because by then you just find your feet and get to know your domain. Thereafter, the actual labour begins.
How do you know about my life so much? Where are those CCTVs?!
yaar. what do you want? a medal? for being born into the family with the background you want? people are gonna be upset they dont have the same advantages, it absolutely does not matter that you also work hard- its not about you an bacche. not everything is about you. its about what nepotism is doing to their careers. let them complain. you make the best of your situation. why should folks who are worse off change their complaints because your feelings are hurt?
Jis jagah par dimag lagana nahi padta waha contacts or nepotism aa hi jata hai.
Just think over it, what do we lawyers do? Is it anything intellectual or only talented people can do? Even class XII passed court clerks do better than us. In legal profession, a law degree has no relevance. It is like intermediary work, like a broker, nothing more than that.
Such a 'Let them eat cake' take by the blessed second-gen OP
The divide in generational 'insiders' and non-generational 'outsiders' begins at colleges. It persists at the time of getting your enrollment form signed. First gens have no place at the table in the Bar rooms, despite being paying members. Insider law students trotting as "interns" are given a royal cushion for their @$$.
Insiders start filing their VPs in daddy's/ mommy's matters, argue those, while we are stuck searching for even half as decent seniors who hopefully treat us at least like human-slaves and not like scum. We are trapped seeking adjournments and getting matters kept back with ni end in sight.
Insiders, spare us your sob stories, we have enough on our plates already.
I actually don't understand the constant attacks on "nepo kids" - yes they have it easier initially, but would you not help your kid if they are in the same profession? It's natural, isn't it?
All professions have this - when kids of school teachers get admission easily, no one has an issue. How come this hypocrisy?
In all likelihood, you would help your child too and not throw them to endlessly struggle when you have made something of yourself after years of struggle already.
Just look at the heavy-handed moderation of this thread lol
Just a few weeks ago, some comments regarding 'having litigation in their blood', some other poster claiming to be a third-gen and unabashedly boasting how they hate non-nepos were published on this very site
Just look at the non-published comments on this thread
Stop attacking all of us under the garb of nepotism.
that is not to say that your talent is any less than someone who is a first gen lawyer
Because - Judiciary is not a joke. It's not your family property.
Senior Advocate Designations and HC/SC Appointments are overwhelmingly given to those who's Daddy/Mommy is an Influencial Lawyer, Senior Advocate or Judge.
Don't tell that you are naturally talented and you were born with an SC Digest in your hand in the neonatal ward.
Nepotism in Judiciary is unforgivable. It's 100 times worse than nepotism in Bollywood or a political party.
Because - here, nepotism is 1000% with literally no accountability. You don't suffer like Businesses/Political Parties who collapsed because of nepotism.
Now coming to lower Judiciary,
You guys (nepo kids) always want more time from the judge than a fresher advocate. Force favorable Verdicts. Even local bar associations - you strangle it with your family network making it tough for a non nepo lawyer.
It's the way things are. Come to terms with that fact, and that's the only way to avoid having a mental breakdown.
- Fellow First Gen.
If even now, after all the changes our country has gone through since 1991, all first generation lawyers remain scared of the nepotistic cabal of second+third generation lawyers (like the Sibbals, Chandarchuds of the world) to such an extent that we are not even willing to acknowledge such cabals politics and overreach in the judiciary, how is this right at all?
And please also think whether such silence will strengthen the legal world of India or weaken it!
he is known as one of the lions in entire legal fraternity.
ram jhetmalanis son is not at all famous as his father.
its nothing about first or second generation
its all about HUNGER
Debatable.
Anyways, coming to Jethmalani comment.
Mr. Mahesh Jethmalani became a (1) Designated Senior Advocate (2) a Rajya Sabha MP.
Only because of his natural talent???
His mother hears him read Locke and Tolstoy while she was pregnant.
What a joke man?
There are lakhs of advocates in Bombay. Tens of thousands of really talented ones. How on earth did Jethmalani get Senior Advocate Designation?
Only a few hundred Senior Advocates exist in Bombay. Why are most of them coming from elite families?
There are many more deserving candidates.
Senior Designation is a big deal. If you didn't know.
Even we Judicial Officers have to silently hear these rascal nepos because of thier immense political and Judicial power.
In fact, the families are very well connected. I can't disclose much but I have been witness to a SC judge singing happy birthday to a 4th year old grad at GLC mumbai. Everybody in GLC knows how well connected some families are.
I am not that ugly dear lady/gentleman.
❤️😂
But it’s the second/third gen lawyers who starve us by force and make us fall in line for their own benefit! Should any first gen lawyer raise his voice against the open nepotism, such first gen is forced to leave the legal market.
Now please elaborate what happens if you starve a human - he dies!
All second/third gen lawyers are guilty of murder. Murder of the professional careers of 1000s (if not lacs) of first gen lawyers who were forced to walk away or stay down!
And before you start comparing the Narimans to any normal family do realise the economic cost one must bare to succeed in the legal profession!! Not all families from Bharat are as well of as all families from India (Tier 1/2 cities of India).
Viswanathan and Gopal Sankaranarayanan had KKV.
None of these (except maybe Rohinton) fit the "nepo" definition. But yes, if you are fortunate to get a great mentor, you can definitely make a niche for yourself. Stop listening to negative voices who use this "nepo" tag to discourage you.
Not saying he has not got brains. Well, we all have and can work hard. Cases toh laao. BCI ne ban kar rakha hai solicitation of work. We sell professional services, not banana which is in high demand .
One of my superseniors is a first gen like me. During 2nd wave we got connected due as me and my friends were arranging meds , oxygen and bedding for everyone. He has now 5+ years of experience in HC. I was in District Courts under a senior.
I asked him how he is fairing, & what can I do to jump to HC and make a living. He broke down. He had dreams like everyone else to argue case on merit , get recognition and make a living from law. Early on, he got married to a girl whose father is retd. DGP. So, he was paying rent of a upper middle class flat and an office. It was hard for him to pay for them . Then covid came and situation worsened. He told me that when he would visit district court he would sit with some seniors at evening to enjoy tea (including my senior). He would do so to gain some insight into law and wisdom.
Later on, he would come to know that one of those seniors was found saying "kaam ki Bheekh Maangne aate hain chamber me" (people visit chamber to beg for work). That day he stopped idolizing people and realized that we all are flawed. Thanks to him to give me correct perspective otherwise I would have been running around chasing seniors too. Better to sell Tea and earn respectable ₹400 daily than to get humiliated in name of origin, clan , family.
Social Justice , Equality of status and opportunity and non-discrimination are just cute phrases in constitution.
Here's the truth : - in Most developed countries , blue collar workers are earning more or equal to CEOs!
That's just economic equality equalization. India maybe on that path (I am no economist. I will let economists add their perspective). The 'Education Dream' is bursting from middle class families. Let me add more info.
1. So, my first cousin is an IIT-B Grad. He graduated sometime during 2005-2007 I guess. He is in top positions in Credit Suisse (Londoner). His salary is through the roof ! (But so are the expenses). His wife is an IITian too. Similar Salary. Couple recently had a child. The Baby Sitter's retainer was half the salary of the wife. Can't disclose his name as he is well known in IIT Circles and his name pops up in google search suggestions.
2. If you watch Vlogs in youtube of Indians in Canada , USA , New Zealand then you will know that people are providing services as Cab Drivers and working 2 jobs and earning almost same as some CEOs.
3. Back in 2010-2011 when Radio Mirchi and feature fone FM was popular, I use to listen to it . I was using Samsung corby. So, in a radio live the RJ told how his friend who is working in Corporate MNC in Gurgoan told te RJ about 'Sutta / Corn' joint near his office who is making good money. It was in 2010 !
So , yeah .
1. Govt exams
2. Litigate
We know about #1. Now often we even dont find a good senior advocate to join. It is based on contacts and recommendation as far as i know. We spend 5 years learning ideals of law only to face the harsh reality that
"oh, you are not rich, so no place for you. Your dad is not a big shot who will he call?"
Now you will play the "merit card". I will et Avani ji Bansal reply to your merit card as she is much more educated than me . She is the right person to reply as she is a scholar herself (All gold medals in HNLU, Oxford , Harvard)
https://youtu.be/xZLqlMWBLr0
Mind you, She is less into litigation and now trying hands on coaching as best of my knowledge. She has joined congress too .
For a first generation lawyer, there is so much of uncertainty. I pity those who depend on parents even to get a vehicle to travel to the court in the first five years. Success is not guaranteed even after five years, because by then you just find your feet and get to know your domain. Thereafter, the actual labour begins.
All the best all the first gen lawyers who intend to litigate.
Quote: Very true Quote: How do you know about my life so much? Where are those CCTVs?!
Recent but stale news related to discussion
Just think over it, what do we lawyers do? Is it anything intellectual or only talented people can do? Even class XII passed court clerks do better than us. In legal profession, a law degree has no relevance. It is like intermediary work, like a broker, nothing more than that.
you cant do anything in the law profession without a law degree.
Also, no litigators are not brokers, they are absolutely power deals as only they make or break criminal/ civil cases.
The divide in generational 'insiders' and non-generational 'outsiders' begins at colleges. It persists at the time of getting your enrollment form signed. First gens have no place at the table in the Bar rooms, despite being paying members. Insider law students trotting as "interns" are given a royal cushion for their @$$.
Insiders start filing their VPs in daddy's/ mommy's matters, argue those, while we are stuck searching for even half as decent seniors who hopefully treat us at least like human-slaves and not like scum. We are trapped seeking adjournments and getting matters kept back with ni end in sight.
Insiders, spare us your sob stories, we have enough on our plates already.
All professions have this - when kids of school teachers get admission easily, no one has an issue. How come this hypocrisy?
In all likelihood, you would help your child too and not throw them to endlessly struggle when you have made something of yourself after years of struggle already.
Just a few weeks ago, some comments regarding 'having litigation in their blood', some other poster claiming to be a third-gen and unabashedly boasting how they hate non-nepos were published on this very site
Just look at the non-published comments on this thread