Like I said- I would disbelieve that someone was homosexual if they only entered heterosexual relationships. Behaviour matters for behavioural classification. Gender identity is not making claims about behavior- its making claims about internal states of mind.

That said- Yeah. You can leave the discussion. Think about it some more- theres no shame in being wrong or in changing your mind.

You be kind. You stop censoring and threatening to censor and calling disagreement hate speech and allowing comments that harken back to "women are hysterical". You be respectful. You stop assuming that anyone who disagrees- they must hate all people who identify as trans- they must hate all gay people- they must just be bigots- people who disagree with you must be bigoted or ignorant. Do you know how exhausting it is to hear that misogynistic stuff over and over? do you know how awful it is to constantly be told to educate yourself when youre the one providing thoughtful responses and links to studies and analysis? as if women who disagree with ideology have to be so stupid they cannot understand high falutin theory. we understand- we disagree. Once you approach the topic with some degree of curiosity and open mindedness and intellectual humility- you can then start censoring other people for not doing so.

Only one side here has argued that their opponents are all irrational because they have periods. Only one side as argued that there should be discrimination in education and employment. No wonder women want to escape this rank misogyny. Maybe youd treat us more like equals if we all identified as non-binary- i doubt it though.

Please assume the best of the poster and if it was a troll, then ignore it - no one reasonable actually believes any of that nonsense to be true. But if being charitable, the point of the post was a misguided attempt that calling an entire group mentally ill can be triggering and upsetting, especially if the evidence and science and cause and effect relating to trans people is complicated.

These are valid questions to ask. The problem is that usually those questions are asked without also acknowledging that many more cases exist that aren't as fringe or problematic where having strong trans support systems actually saves lives and prevents mental illness.

At some point this becomes a contest of which side causes or suffers more harm, and most societies seem to be struggling to cope with formulating compromises.

And the more extreme fringes of neither side seem to accept those concerns, and public debate then often becomes hostile, as this thread too seems to have become.

it isnt just replacing the word trans with women. Who in this thread has claimed trans people shouldnt work or go to law school or are all crazy? why are you deliberately misunderstanding what people are saying? we're asking if gender dysphoria and non-binary identification could be a symptom of complex mental illnesses- surely no one can argue that being female is a symptom of mental illness. You will have more sympathy for any movement that benefits men over any movement that is solely looking to liberate women.
The implication of the argument is pretty clear- if you dare disagree with us woman- we will call you irrational and hysterical because your material body has periods. The thing healthy female bodies do- which if they didnt - you and I wouldnt be born. And I might add- the thing only female bodies do. I know men think periods are gross and signs of illnesses- but every woman knows that she needs to go to a doctor to get herself checked out if she is routinely missing periods. Theyre the sign of a healthy body. But go ahead- laugh it off all that male centred bigotry.
You dont think its hate speech because its directed at women- who you think are more powerful than men who say theyre women. You need to introspect.

Nothing significant has been censored here beyond trying to stop this thread veering into transphobia by implying trans people are mentally ill, please do not imply otherwise.

But you've said what you need to and while you and others on both sides have made a few thought provoking points, and there are serious issues surround open discourse and debate around how society and policy and the medical profession should deal with it, this thread kinda proves why it's so hard: it often seems to come down to us vs them, from both camps, and anger.

Are there no commonalities between both camps, if we ignore the more extreme fringes of both, and can agree on mutual respect, acceptance and kindness? It might not solve all the issues but that does leave a lot of space in between.

Do you believe everyone when they make claims about themselves? there are grown men who claim they are really 12 years old on the inside- should we let them go play with 12 year olds? there are brahmins that claim they are the most oppressed caste in india? shall we give them exclusive reservations? what about men who claim theyre oppressed because women wont sleep with them? should we force women to sleep with them? rachel dolezal really really thinks shes black on the inside and elizabeth warren really really thinks shes native american- do you believe them?

You dont accept any of these claims unquestioningly- theyre all about oppression- why do you accept claims about gender unquestioningly?

I dont accept that there are any genders. I dont want any genders- my utopia is a world where anyone can dress speak and behave any way they want without fear. But that dress, speech and behaviour wouldnt change material realities about sexed bodies. And females are on average weaker than males. Males have shown male pattern criminality. thats true regardless of self image. thats all im saying.

Do you realise that where this trans movement leads is for kids who might be gay - who will inevitably during puberty feel like they might be better off being the opposite sex and being heterosexual- will be encouraged to transition? Did you listen to susie green the CEO of mermaids who was so upset at having a gay son she decided he was in the wrong body and got him surgeries and hormones when he was a minor? Please read Hannah Barnes' time to think and the Cass review. Read the Shellenberger leaks of the gender identity services in england- the nurses and doctors are joking about how there wont be gay kids left in a few years because theyre all transitioning now. Do you think its a good think its okay for lesbians to only like other females? that would be transphobic. Because sex doesnt matter- only internal gender feelings do according to this doctrine. Look it up- theres a riley j denis video from early trans activist years claiming just that- they have a word for it- its the cotton ceiling- cause of womens underwear. Do you think its a coincidence that lgbt organisations are now calling lesbians "non-men" who love other "non-men"? Because same sex attraction is transphobic now. Isnt that homophobic? Look this stuff up if you like. More gay men and lesbians are on the gender critical side than you even think. Old school lesbians like Julie Bindel, Kathleen Stock, Katie Herzog, old school gay men like Fred Sargent- people who started the stonewall riots- theyre all critical of this stuff. Do you think theyre all just bigoted?

Look up the giggle v tickle case. Apparently lesbians cannot have a dating app all to themselves without excluding male bodied people anymore- that would be transphobic. Youre not on the right side of history.

You need to educate yourself.

You're right, this is not going anywhere and getting ridiculous... Was trying to rebut your claim that only things that could be externally seen are 'real', which taking your argument similarly would mean homosexuality is imagined unless it's expressed in some behaviour by someone.

The claims you make regarding mental illness are clearly not something that can be adequately discussed here, if your basic argument is that being trans is always a mental illness or caused by mental illness.

We can't answer here what OPs friends are going through, nor can we generalise that all trans people are like OPs friends, or that OPs account is even a fair one. So let's park this discussion, it seems to have run it's course and you've had your say and is unfortunately not constructive anymore.

As written, that post is obviously hate speech but that seems to be the rhetorical point rather than intended as mysogyny - ie, written in the style of OP but replacing the word trans with women?

So if it is hate speech when written about women, why is it not when said about trans people?

Unless I'm misunderstanding their intent here...

alright- so going by your logic- if a non binary identified female did not get a hair cut or wear mens clothes with regularity- it would be okay to suspect that shes making it up for attention? All non binary people should have to prove their non-binary ness right?

If a trans person didnt get surgeries - we should not accept them as trans? are you a truscum or a transmedicalist? you said that the proof of these identities is in behaviour- what if the behaviour is absent?

Clearly you didnt make that argument in good faith. You and I both know these are not claims about anything social or behavioural- these are claims that are individual and psychological. How is it then not fair to ask if the chicken or the egg came first? did the slew of mental illnesses come first and then the dysphoria? or did the dysphoria come first? is it in fact- a real genuine identity claim to be taken at face value? or could it be something that is not that?

so this is the masked off misogyny thats at the heart of it. I know I know- youre joking you were trying to make a point- no one should believe your words until you want them to.

No one here has said a single thing about non-binary people that you have- no one said they should be discriminated at the workplace, or that they shouldnt work or go to law school, or that they are irrational because theyre non binary. Or that theyre not equal to everyone else.

Exactly the opposite. People are enquiring very gently if mental illnesses- complex mental illnesses could have as one of their symptoms non-binary identification/ trans identification or gender dysphoria. and people are insisting that non-binary people are just the same as everyone else- just as special as everyone else.

If you could show me science that proved women really were so irrational and emotional during their period that they went beyond the range of anything a man might do or say- then I would agree that maybe women shouldnt be handling nukes. Can you show me that? wheres the study?

If you could prove to me- through empirical data that women are really bad at law school and shouldnt go and are really bad at practicising laws and shouldnt do it. I might change my mind. It so happens that you are just wrong about that- nearly every batch ive seen in law school- and ive seen more than 9 because I went back several times- women outperform men in exams and in competitions and after law school- they simply seem to have better careers on average than men do. They incur a disadvantage if they have babies- but thats something we need to figure out if we can or should do something about.

Will you subject your group to the same scrutiny? what youre essentially threatening here is - we will be misogynistic and awful if you dont go along with this. Not so charming. Keep it up. Help more people come over to our side.

two genders is not a christian invention. That is blindingly ahistorical. Every language in the world has words for male and female. most languages in the world have gendered words even for objects. In hindi we have gendered language for tea, coffee, bus, train, cats and dogs and basically nearly everything. did all of them start after the 1600s when the british colonizing started?

They say they are non-binary- and the only way to know they are nonbinary is because they say they are- that seems like an identity claim to me. You want people to unquestioningly accept these claims. Playing word games wont change whats actually happening.

Butler isnt too much- you want to go? shall I begin to ask questions? Just give me the green light. its not that i didnt understand- I disagreed. Which is a thing we get to do in free societies.

No one is claiming alok vaid menon doesnt exist. or that he isnt human. People are disputing the claim that he isnt a man because he says so.

do we tell depressed people people that yes- things are exactly as they perceive and everything is horrible and yes they should consider self harm? or do we find ways to help them so that they no longer feel depressed? do we do cognitive behavioural therapy and medication to manage the illness?

You want everyone to affirm non-binary beliefs because you think that leads to a better world. People disagree- sometimes validating claims about internal states of mind is not the best thing you can do.

youve got it backwards. She isnt saying "all non binary people are like this" Shes saying- are they identifying as non binary because they have this whole host of other mental illnesses?

What is hateful about this speech? that you hate it? No one here has called for harming anyone? or for thinking of anyone as less human- there is simply a question of whether these identity claims are to be seen as credible and genuine or as pleas for attention from mentally ill people- whether we should take these claims at face value and shut up about it or whether we should be skeptical.

pointing out logical inconsistencies in your arguments does not a strawman make. If you want to argue a strawman- you have to prove that there is a more refined argument that one is missing. You cannot do that.

Please show me the mammal that goes to the vet to get a sex change operation or the animal that cares about pronouns. I would be happy to change my mind. You would not be happy with the lack of evidence you find.

Are sex and gender roles not as strongly linked as some would argue? yes. Obviously. There are women who like work and are ambitious and cutthroat and there are men who want to take care of babies and old people. Where we disagree is that that makes them less of a woman or less of a man. You seem to be arguing that it does- explain to me why you are so wedded to gender ?

sorry- so i understand- a short haircut and fashion choices and surgeries to you- mean that one is not the sex one is? so butch lesbians are not women to you? flamboyant gay men are not men for you? you sure youre being kind or woke or progressive with that stance? Sure youre not homophobic there? I would think- whatever fashion choices one might make- even surgeries- one remains the sex one is born as. If i go get a haircut and only wear sweats and hoodies that would make me a man? or non binary? because theres something inherent in women that draws them to high heels and spinny skirts? a gendered soul? does the same thing draw women to babies and home making? should all women who want to pursue careers have to transition to men or non binary then?

I absolutely think body modification including liposuctions are awful and harmful and people shouldnt do them. Why would you imagine different? I also think people clearly die and experience great distress because of things like non-binary nullification surgeries and sex change surgeries. Please read the damn cass review, read the studies out of netherlands, read articles in the AUA journal that indicate that trasitioning increases suicidality. Read Andrea Long Chu in the new yorker who said he didnt feel suicidal until he started transitioning. Please go watch Jazz Jennings and go watch scott newgent talk. I want to live in a world where no one has to feel like they have to get these disastrous cosmetic interventions to fit in. You want to live in a world where there are no tomboys and no feminine men cause they would all transition by getting surgeries and exogenous hormones.

Read the damn cass review- they were sterilising gay and autistic kids because of gender expression- what a regressive awful thing to do - literally conversion therapy- because you had to believe in gendered souls.

Social sanction exists - very often- in religious movements- for disbelief and skepticism. "not being kind" is your version of "keep sweet and obey". If I dont agree with you you feel free to censor me instead of revising and making your arguments better or even genuinely trying to understand why anyone might disagree. You are the authoritarian.

No one here is being unkind of cruel to people they dont know- except- I would argue- people who perpetuate harmful gender stereotypes like you do.

I am actually listening and responding- youre the one censoring people because theyre saying things you dont like.

its not about should. Its not about what ought to be. I dont think we change the world by deciding to ignore the material reality. Men are physically superior to women. Thats just true. on average they have bigger bones, more muscle size, larger lungs, larger hearts, all of that makes a difference. I didnt decide it should be so- i realised I cannot change reality by pretending.

I think when we ignore material realities like sex in the real world- in favor of these fanciful unprovable gender souls idea- then you have disastrous circumstances. you have the erasure of womens rights and the breaking of womens solidarity. you have protections for women erased from the law. That actually causes actual violence.

I absolutely have educated myself. I have spent years now reading about this stuff. I am sorry but the condescension is exhausting- you dont think someone could disagree with you because they might know something you dont? How smug and self assured and close minded is that. Do you think I wanted to be dissenting to something like this? do you think i like being disagreeable?

Have you educated yourself? have you read the Cass review? or Helen Joyces book? or Kathleen Stocks book? Have you educated yourself?

Your last paragraph is not an example of bona fide, and most of your arguments are straw men, so would argue as moderator that this thread has run its course and you're trolling now.

Just like homosexuality, fluid genders, transgenderism and transexualism exists in animals too: https://daily.jstor.org/transgender-proclivities-in-animals/

And if homosexuality can be proven by external behaviour, so can any other 'queer' external expression, whether that goes to surgery or lifestyle or your fashion or haircuts.

Anorexia might be tempting to compare and might seem to share some similarities on its face, but for one, it literally kills people. But someone getting liposuction or other plastic surgery because they might erroneously feel they're fat or want to be a supermodel does not attract society's judgment or your opprobrium? So why would any surgery or such beliefs that have to do with gender or genitals?

Finally, yes, social sanction already exists for not being kind, so most people try not to be dicks to each other. So please be kind and don't rail about moderation or categorically deny the existence of trans as a 'thing', which sounds like a dog whistle and something that is potentially unkind and cruel to people you might not know. You can do better if you want to genuinely engage on the issues and have genuine questions, rather than wanting to prove only your opinion is valid.

1. Read his works and try to break down his arguments into their component parts. See if there are gaps in the arguments. Then politely ask him about those gaps. Or even just ask good questions about the piece based on other things you have read - how he responds to someone who made an argument different from his own (if he hasn't written something about that already). While I don't want to spread false hope, you never know. If you spot something clever, he might be more willing to invest time/energy in helping you to secure something good. If you read the obituary of Joseph Raz published in the London Times, for example, you will note that Raz (still an undergraduate student completing his law degree at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, back in the 1960's) approached Hart when the latter was at a conference in Israel and told him that there were gaps in an argument that he (Hart) had made in one of his writings, gaps which Hart agreed were serious and corrected; not long after this, Raz went to pursue a DPhil in Oxford, and was supervised by... no surprises, HLA Hart. While there are differences in circumstances (Baxi's age, in particular), as this story shows, if you have the smarts, the courage etc., especially in combination with this golden connection, who knows what may or may not happen? (NB: this should not be taken as a substitute for you performing well in your own studies, extracurriculars, internships etc. and putting in hard work through the usual channels as well).

2. Just be nice. Don't view things as transactionally as your comment seems to indicate you are doing. Maybe send a message on his birthday or some other special occasion. Even if not transactional, don't worry about being so overly formal. I think you can impress much more by balancing formality with kindness than being some stuffed-shirt pain-in-the-neck.

I have seen far more men talk about women in the most objectifying disgusting ways imaginable. Plus with comments from men theres often an undertone of violence. I doubt SRK feels the threat of being raped if he knows many people on set thing he looks attractive. If its a woman shed justifiably be scared for her safety. Men have conversations ×10000 times worse and degrading, just behind closed doors. Hows it any differently

"not trying to stir up a debate" yes you are, you whiny brat.

It happens with both genders, and both genders are equally liable to debauchery or simple hormones. It's just that males have, throughout history, been liable to misuse their position of relative power over females to negate consent for stuff. Women's thoughts and sexuality have been repressed since time immemorial.

You don't think males congregate together and say "kya hot thi bhai voh bandi" or "XYZ bollywood actress was really hot!". If you don't say anything towards the males who say that (even in higher positions of power), then you have no right to question the women who objectify males.

Females still are pretty disadvantaged in society

was watching chak de india behind the scenes and one of the female actress was like "srk looked so hot on set everyday" - everyone in the frame started gushing and it was so normal. imagine if the same is said by a male actor about a female co-actress.

if feminists are after equal rights, why are they not protesting against this attitude of female actresses- after all this liberty far exceeds equality since males can't ever think of saying something like this.

so jahan zaada rights mile vahan theek hai but jahan kam miley vahan equal hona chahiye?

not trying to stir up a debate but as a newbie into this concept called feminism, i really want to listen to what feminists have to say about this - once again, i am open to being schooled on this topic, i just feel that maybe i am missing something here. would love to hear some thoughts. btw i am myself a firm believer in feminism but this is one incident that i just cant ignore - i want to know the logic. feel free to do this debate in a civilised manner guys/girls.

Thanks for letting us know -you're right, the search seems to have broken, sorry about that. We'll get that looked into and hopefully fixed soon. In the meantime, as suggested below, please search via external engines:

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Do you have evidence for that claim of a 'drastic decline'? Until 2017 at least, the Hindu population in Pakistan had been growing: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Pakistan

Interesting question, why did India adopt democracy? Is that an Indian or 'Hindu' quality? And, controversially, would India have done so if it hadn't been for British occupation and repression, as well as post-enlightenment 'Western-style' education and ideas of some of its revolutionary leaders?

Is the fact that Russia as a dictatorship is nominally a Christian state relevant? Or that China is a anti-religious? Religion is only one aspect of power and history and accident, it's rarely the totality as you seem to imply.

Hi, I assume you have only been applying to big firms (whose teams I am almost sure do not have vacancies for 2024 graduates) and to smaller firms that pay well (again, these guys, based on my application experience, have all been saying that they do not have vacancies for freshers or assessment interns). I do not know if this will be helpful, but here are just a list of the names of other law firms and corporates that I have copied and pasted from GLC, Mumbai's website (https://glcplacements.com/recruiters) to whom you may consider applying. The list definitely includes names of firms that you would already have applied to. Good Luck.
Law Firms
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My belief is that 1 year in a law firm means 1 month less in your lifespan. If you smoke and suffer from obesity/diabetes etc, then 2 months less in your lifespan. So if you work for 12 years in a law firm as a healthy person, you will die a year early. And if you are unhealthy then 2 years early.

sorry what? you make literally no sense- people in india were already against sati is it? they were already against child marriage too? and dowry? why did they keep doing it then?

Were all these things about women in female bodies then? or were hindus confused about non binaries before the evil white man came? youre so ill informed and so smug- you think these are desirable qualities?

Literally every society in the world has different words for man and woman- this isnt about western prudishness- its about human bodies you ▮▮▮. We also have different words for male and female animals of most species. that wasnt an invention of the west. sanskrit pali kannada tamizh telugu hindi all have gender baked deep into the language- that wasnt because of the british.

you should learn to critically think instead of just consuming nonsense written by post modernists who will tell you they dont care about whats true.

They were a little sad in 2019 when I got my results, but they've just asked me to keep my head down and focus in the T2 NLU I got. They were just sad because all of us knew I had it in me to get to NLS, I just got burnt out due to multiple exams I was forced to take + other family stuff + exam hall shenanigans (the invigilator fucking brought her kid to the hall + the person beside me kept trying to ask for my watch, he was a very weird kid).

My family recognised that I was still in a relatively good position, just that I would need to work harder to get to where I am now as a recent graduate vs if I were in NLS. I am proud for reaching where I am, but I also recognise that luck was a factor as well in this shitty job market.

Even in T3, be in the top 3-4 of your batch, there can be no excuses. Your parents just want to be able to boast that "my kid went to NLS/NALSAR". Fuck that, you do you. Embrace your past, climb to the future.

Thank you for the advice! Would you still recommend avoiding law if I were burnt out and looking to maybe do a side hustle/ clear UPSC? I've enough savings to last an year or two on my own and my parents are also willing to re-burden themselves as long as I study for UPSC lol.

This conveys a fantastical view of how to do things which is likely to be extremely unhelpful. I wish I could do better, but as someone who hasn't been to NUJS, I don't feel qualified to speak. However, I will say this: lots of questions are left unanswered. How on earth does the OP manage extracurriculars/academics if the atmosphere is cutthroat? How does OP maintain her (or his) mental health in such circumstances? RCC is made up of students. How does OP do things successfully on that front if she doesn't know how to navigate whatever politics it is riddled with? While the 'head down' approach does have a few things to recommend it, I think more useful advice would be to explain to OP the nature of student toxicity at NUJS, the different way(s) it manifests itself and how OP may possibly be impacted by it, how (if possible) to avoid some of that, how to deal with it where it can't be avoided etc.

OP, if you are reading this, not to dampen your enthusiasm or anything mate, but from what I have heard, they can get pretty nasty down there. An acquaintance of mine who is blind studied there and was prevented by a classmate, who played a trick which was way below the belt with my blind acquaintance's technology, from participating in an online competition (I won't provide further details here, because I share the mods' anxiety about potentially revealing identifiable information). For everyone other than OP, do all the shouting you like about this being a one-off and perhaps you might even be right, but also reflect on what that (somebody thinking it is okay to take advantage of a disabled person, in supposedly one of the nation's top law schools, in 2024) reveals about the place and its atmosphere.