The specific facts of the two cases you cite must be considered - some of this was about more than immediate “economics”/ revenue inflows, i would imagine:

(i) With Manan, CAM effectively consolidated the 2 largest and “highly regarded” cap marks teams into 1. I guess that this has significantly increased their ability to control/increase rates in a practice area that isn’t a money printer by any measure. I would also imagine that Yash and Manan (and possibly Lala ji as well) must have had a chat with their business generating Partners and instructed them to not undercut each other otherwise none of this would work.

(ii) With Nisha, it looks like she capitalized on JSA’s want to not be a T2 firm + the fact that equity was opening up with some of their older partners retiring. Mind you, Nisha may have her own clients, but antitrust teams require transaction teams to feed them merger control work especially the USD/EUR/GBP billing transactions. A single LARGE transaction can yield about 2+ crores for the acquirer’s antitrust team. A single LARGE competitor-to-competitor transaction (which will come along very infrequently) may yield more if the competitors are market leaders. But most of those would be referred to the antitrust team by the transaction team. This makes it tough to quantify the pay bump for Nisha and the value add for JSA.

(iii) There is a high degree of PR surrounding these two individuals which is why you pick them up as examples, presumably. Gautam Saha’s shift to TT&A saw a shift of a higher number of Partners and other lawyers, not to mention the amount of money at play being far in excess. A friend at TT&A joked that their Delhi office has basically become “Gautam Saha & Associates”. I wont be surprised if there are other examples of team movements which are skipping my mind at the moment.

In terms of impacts on As/SAs/PAs, there will not be a significant impact on the large majority since these moves are only driven by the personal motivations of the rainmakers. Some of the PAs might become Partners, maybe everyone gets a slight pay bump but that’s about it. All of this is assuming that the juniors have been asked to move - apparently Nisha didn’t invite her fellow TL partners and the juniors mapped to them, although she controlled everyone.

A few more points -

(i) Factually speaking, 30 crores isnt the highest billed by antitrust teams. There are other T1 teams - some bigger than NKU’s and some smaller - which recover more than 30 crores per annum (also, the metric that firms care about is “recovery” and not “billing”). While I am no fan of hers considering the stories I’ve heard, I will concede that there is a good chance that NKU does/did more than 30 crores of recovery per annum. Anyhow, the highest revenues are probably at SAM competition - with around 12 partners (3x of team NKU). They may have a lower profit per partner but would definitely have a higher revenue figure. They simply wouldn’t keep promoting people to Partner and hiring juniors otherwise - and the suggestion that the team is exempt from usual law firm economic rationale is foolhardy. While Shardul’s lalaji vibes aren’t as intense as Cyril, make no mistake that SAM is a money driven law firm like the rest.

(ii) Saying things like “Cravath scale” is just not an accurate way to talk about this - not to mention that the context in which you’ve referred to it also seems inaccurate (i think you meant lockstep?). The Cravath scale - the highest pay for lawyers in the world - refers to a very specific set of numbers, i.e., what Cravath and similarly placed firms pay their lawyers. While there are firms outside the US that pay Cravath (mostly foreign offices of US firms), NO indian firms pay Cravath (unless youre lala ji’s family) because they simply arent at that level as much as some of these firms pretend otherwise. Some of the Indian Managing Partners’ rates (usually 1k USD per hour) are the same as/around those of foreign Associates (junior Associates in foreign Big Law are charged out at USD 700-850 per hour). One just has to look at metrics such as total turnover (some foreign firms rake in USD Billions) and average revenue per lawyer. There are foreign firms with headcounts similar to CAM and TL which make MUCH more. Lastly, there is also the fact that you don’t have lalajis like Cyril and Zia in these Cravath scale firms sucking up a significant chunk of profits - even from highly profitable teams - because they provide the “platform”. The lalas basically capitalise on the lethargy of some rainmakers in terms of setting up admin processes and taking on the risk of some fixed costs. As someone who knows some rainmakers who broke away from T1s to start their own gig, those guys begin to make a LOT more after breaking away.

(iii) While gender inequities do exist, you need to appreciate how they do/dont play out in context of law firms. Many of these “top-performers” do not have a personal life (no spouse, no kids) and they reach a point of emptiness where they are all consumed by work and the thought process is “control these little shits and make money number go up brrrrrrr”. Of the two mentioned in your post, one doesnt have a spouse and children while the other got a spouse many years their junior not too long ago. There is no judgment here, just a statement of fact. There are other rainmakers who are divorced because their spouse didn’t want to put up with the absence and/or have terrible relationships with their children because they were absent. Mind you, some of these children end up having a bad long term trajectory because daddy (it mostly is daddy) compensated for their absence by making their wealth available to the kids without supervision.

Lastly, I am glad lawyers in India are beginning to have conversations like this. Remember, its all about the money - the “prestige” of having your matter mentioned in the newspapers doesnt mean anything. The fact that you spent your nights away in office / on screen doesnt matter. Most Associates won’t make Partner. Most Partners won’t make Equity Partner. Barely any Equity Partner will be a Managing Partner (and none will in a lala set up). Focus on securing the $$$ while youre in the system. To do that, conversations like this are important. To do that, Partners also need to step up and promote these conversations (even if anonymously through this platform) irrespective of the fact that their lala ji MP promotes a different “culture” - remember, you’re not getting the best deal either. Alternatively, they can always dance at lala ke bete ka sangeet and hope to get a few extra pieces of silver thrown at them.

The biggest problem is that a myth was spread that NLSIU is the Harvard of the East and that NLUs are like IITs for law. So people started imagining themselves to be comparable to the wizkids in tech and business produced by Harvard and IIT. In reality, the first myth was actually spread by NLSIU students/alumni, while the second myth was spread by students/alumni of newer NLUs, who needed validation. The reality is that neither of these myths are true. Also, the legal job market in India is quite poor.

Bhai tu aata hi upper middle class se hai. People do not realise that law firms make sense for someone moving from middle class to upper middle class. One can shift their entire family of 4-5 into upper middle having slotted 10-15 years in law firms. For those of you already in upper middle these jobs will make less sense. I mean I would borrow few tens of lacks from my dad and start something of my own if I were you. Bank FD karde 1-2 crore ki uska interest will be associates ka salary. For those who need the money they will keep working. It's not bad money by any metric. You keep comparing wrong places and hence will have get wrong answers.

Yes. I have talked about this before but was called a greedy hag. We do not get paid half as much as we should for the amount of work we do. The skill ceiling is too, too high. Unreasonably high. Either you break it to go beyond, or you stay mediocre and earn your allotted betabux. There's no in-between. Not quite the case in other professions.

At least from my anecodtal experience, with the caveat that I went to a reputed city school and some of the people I am talking about are from wealthy families (but not all). I see my school seniors and batchmates earning well from business or jobs in finance, looking fit, playing sports, joining gymkhana clubs and dating/marrying gorgeous WAGs. Some of these people ended up doing MBAs or MSc in management, but not from tier 1 places (SP Jain, IMT Ghaziabad, Nottingham, Lancaster types).

Did I miss something? Is the NLU brand overrated? Is finance and entreprenurship the real deal?

The Nationalisation of NLUs will only happen when an NLU grad is a powerful minister in the Union Cabinet and this will take time maybe 20 years atleast. or if the Supreme Court asks Union Govt to look into it. This is the simple harsh truth. We will just have to wait. Can’t do really anything else.

I agree with NLSIU's position that it is the only NLU that is a national university. The Karnataka High Court was right in upholding it. Please read the decision carefully. It's not only because the CJI is Chancellor, but also because it was a university set up by the Bar Council of India to serve a national purpose.

This has nothing to do with NLS being the only national university, infact NLS is very clearly a state university since it was established under the State Act. Let me also debunk the notion that NLS did what it did because it believed that it is the only 'national' law school. In my opinion, it is the state govt. that does not want to let go of its control over NLS- how will they impose domicile quota requirements if NLS becomes a central university? The administration, of course will have to dance to the tune of the State government since they rely on it for funding and of course getting more land from Bangalore University. (And they need land since they are expanding like anything.)

Far before all the keyboard warrior campaigns an actual bill was introduced in the parliament for NLU nationalisation drafted by a DSNLU student. LI covered this also: https://www.legallyindia.com/home/dsnlu-student-drafted-nlu-bill-now-introduced-in-lok-sabha-for-national-importance-status-to-nlus-20170804-8706

How many partners from the first couple of batches, which now have PQE of over 10 years? Comparable to NLU grads of the same bracket?

Similar questions re SAs?

And general feedback? Can they work hard and take the pressure, given that they are from such privileged backgrounds? Do they have the same hunger as middle-class NLU kids? Or do they burn out and join think tanks, dad’s practice, family business etc?

Do they do research/ compliance/ transactions of only tech companies/ data privacy chapter of DD? The main purpose of this question is to know if I can learn as much about deals as an M&A/PE/VC team if I apply for a TMT team? Is it purely advisory? Will they test companies act during interviews? If someone who is interest in both tech laws and wants to gain experience in gencorp aspects too, should they apply for TMT? The demarcations are not clear out there imho, very confused. Or are these demarcations firm specific? Will be super super grateful if someone can answer!!

Why would you put this out when you have no further slabs and one of the go to tricks is to underpay existing employees or lateral with lower bases? And that this amount is for one of three teams only. And before you say 2.5 months bonus which you need to because everything is slabbed and remember times when partners left for low pay or that at every level pays can differ by 50-60% and no performance is not the reason.

And after this, frankly he should not visit NUJS. I remember something a while ago - came across it on David Latt's substack newsletter, 'Original Jurisdiction'. Some U.S. circuit judges instituting an open policy that they wouldn't hire Yale JD graduates for clerkships because they felt that their reactions to conservative speakers on campus meant they weren't intellectually ready for life at large. I don't wanna push too hard, but their Indian colleagues should pay very careful attention to what happened and decide if perhaps it might be a worthwhile source of inspiration for how to deal with NUJS. After all, isn't NUJS supposed to be "the Yale of the east"? Therefore wouldn't it be only fair for NUJS to experience consequences for tolerating bad behaviour?

https://davidlat.substack.com/p/a-prominent-federal-judge-declares

You would like it, would you? If it were your son/daughter/brother/sister/wife/husband/friend who was on the receiving end of such abuse and the institution's spirit was to "move on"? Go shove your opinions into the hardest-to-access depths of a very, very deep lake.

Just study, man. It's not that difficult. That's what the top 75%ile of your batch has been doing and that's what you should do too. Getting a T1 placement shouldn't be your goal till you actually have something on your CV to even consider it. While yeah people with lower grades do get placed too - it, in no way, is the norm.

if you are only doing the course for placement then I'd suggest not to. 11LPA being the highest clearly means no T1s are hiring from here and the ones who are will give you a job even with just a long term internship. Additionally, I really don't think there is any theory in cap marks which you cannot learn by yourself and need to spend 4lakhs on, just pick up any drhp available on SEBI and read it along with Schedule VI ICDR, everything else is just clerical work which you will master within 1 month of an internship.

But in house has many benefits also. My work is light and easy. I earn 75 lakhs a year after tax, with weekends off and no office after 5.30/6. My law firm colleagues work twice as hard to earn the same amount. I get perks too, like foreign travel, AMEX card, membership of a cricket club etc. And my office is fab. Has a gym, cafe with great food etc.

Choosing a less hectic path is so often met with disdain rather than understanding. Not everyone measures success by salary or skills alone, and there’s nothing inherently superior about working longer hours, enduring more stress or having more legal knowledge. Everyone is entitled to live their lives, some live to work, some work to sustain living.

This is an old thread

https://www.legallyindia.com/convos/topic/278146-Banking-Finance-Oversimplified-Part-2-ECBs-#comments

Part 2, 3 and 4 were there. You can just search on Google "the heading of this thread + legally India"

Please don’t spill the tea — not everyone deserves an undignified send-off.

Let’s just leave it at this: Retirement was the right decision for him. He served the Bar and the country in the best way he knew how. We wish him all the very best in this new chapter.

His retirement should serve as a timely reminder for all of us to take our mental health seriously — to reflect on how we respond to our environment: are our reactions measured or disproportionate? And to take proactive steps when something no longer serves us or begins to impair our ability to engage meaningfully in our social and professional lives.

1. "i want to understand how to get in touch with foreign law firms? is it easier to reach out to them after a llm or directly while working through their website or through recruiters?" Theoretically, at least, it should be easier to get in touch with good contacts through an LLM, as the graduate recruitment teams, associates and trainees often visit the campuses of the good universities for careers services events and events organised by the established student law societies or top city careers-focussed (law/finance) societies. But that comes at a huge price - UK living costs, university tuition and all that sort of thing, not taking into account miscelaneous expenses that might arise, such as commuting costs between campus and law firm offices, if events are held there, or for example, the costs of dining at a fancy hotel or something (which sometimes come up). Also, again, you are likely to gain access to at least some resources (like SJT samples for TC applications etc) through your LLM uni's careers service, but again this comes with the price tags of UK living costs + tuition mentioned above, along with no fixed promise of a TC coming your way. What you have to understand is that the careers services of these unis do a lot: they help conduct mock interviews for you, they have institutionally-set up facilities to help do both manual and technology-based systems of your CV (their CV checker tools use many of the ATS systems that employers use to score your CV), they have facilities that help you practice for video interview questions, sample SJT practice tests, etc, they regularly conduct careers presentations, bringing in recruiters on campus to talk to foreign lawyers reading for LLMs on how to qualify and work in the UK. But that is as far as they will go: giving you a nudge or helping you develop the skills, but they won't hand you the employment offer. Of course, you can play your cards right and be successful this way - some LLM students every year manage to do exactly that - but there is that major caveat still associated with it.

Therefore, I'd suggest getting in touch with them through Indian contacts of yours who know the right people. There are plenty of people who should be able to help. If you have attended a reasonably good Indian university, you should have at least one senior per cohort who went for a TC right out of law school or made a lateral move, or if you know how to use LinkedIn etc well to get in touch with Indian kids who did their LLB in UK and got a TC that way (and BTW there are a not insignificant number of these, not all of whom are arrogant or snobbish), you could manage that way. Again, as you can see, the argument really drifts towards you playing your cards right.

2. "I also want to ask, will it not be more convinient [sic] to get in touch with law firms after clearing the SQE? this way they will save on cost of funding my SQE exam and the prep and I can directly get started with work?" Not so simple as that. This question has been addressed in the comment above the one written by the user calling themselves "pi".

3. "also, i think Indian practising lawyers get an exemption from giving the SQE II if we have practised for 2/3 years." Really depends on the nature of your circumstances and practice, though overall, yes this should be possible. Talk with the foreign law firms you get in touch with and/or the SRA when you are registering for SQE.

4. "

Additionally, do you think with the talks of foreign law firms coming to india and the BCI trying to make amendments, having cleared the SQE will be of any help?" Merely clearing the SQE? Not so much, I think. What could potentially be of great help is having had prior UK work experience (e.g., having done a TC + post TC NQ and further PQE in years past). Other than that, nothing much.

Hi Bro

I worked in Tuli Delhi office for a year (disputes team).

If you get a chance to join the coverage team, go for it. They work directly under Neeraj Tuli and they are happy. Lots of smiles during and after meetings.

However, the story is completely different for other teams. The culture is extremely toxic and most partners are on ▮▮▮ in Delhi.

The mumbai team is still better than Delhi. Please check profiles of people already working there. You will find better retention rates in Mumbai than in Delhi. There are strong reasons behind that.

Things could have changed in the last 3 years, so speak to someone who is already working there before joining.

My 1 year was a complete disaster since I had to work under a partner who was a ▮▮▮ ▮▮▮ (who has subsequently fired).