Shardul Shroff statement on Amarchand CLB rebuke: ‘Partner acted responsibly’, client not harmed, affidavits explained

Amarchand Mangaldas Delhi managing partner Shardul Shroff has released a statement explaining the events surrounding the Company Law Board (CLB) imposing a fine of Rs 50,000 and justifying the termination of employment of two allegedly responsible associates, as reported by Legally India yesterday.

The two associates were not reachable for comment at the time of going to press after repeated attempts by Legally India to contact them.

Shroff said in his emailed statement:

1. The Firm is internally reviewing the order of the Hon’ble Company Law Board delivered on 17th of August, 2012 in the matter of Rupak Gupta vs. Banaras House Private Limited. The issue relates to the affidavits in support of a petition, which were deposed to and affirmed before the two notary publics and the deponents were allegedly identified by an associate level retainer.

2. In the first instance the affidavits with the Petition had blanks without stating which paragraphs were based on knowledge and which paragraphs were based on information received.

3. The Company Petition as supported by the incomplete affidavit(s) was, therefore, lying in objection. In order to complete the verification and recordal of the clauses, subsequent affidavits were filed, which were also inaccurate, in that, though the affidavits were affirmed by the general Power of Attorney of the Petitioners, they were still made in the name of the Petitioners and as if the Petitioners were signing.

4. The two associates involved did not take care to ensure that the name of the deponent and the signatory matched. This mistake of signing the affidavit as Petitioner(s) without identifying himself as a general Power of Attorney holder was erroneous and identification by the associate level retainer was also erroneous. The associate admitted the mistake contemporaneously in writing. That is why fresh affidavits were filed with an application before the Hon’ble Company Law Board subsequently.

5. This is a serious mistake on the part of the two associates involved and as soon as this was noticed by the partner on the 6th of August, 2012, an application was filed on the 7th of August to place on record freshly signed and affirmed affidavits. Importantly the petitioners did not repudiate the petition or the affidavits or his general Power of Attorney holder.

6. In identifying the deponent and signatory, the associate level retainer represented himself in his capacity as an advocate identifying the deponent. The firm does not sign or identify deponents of affidavits before any notary public. Individual lawyers present themselves before the Oath Commissioner or Notary Public when they know the deponent and the advocate makes the deponent’s identification.

7. The Firm has always stood for the highest standards of professional practice and integrity and professionalism and has had an unblemished record. This is an unfortunate case where two individuals have not applied themselves, not been diligent and have by their carelessness jeopardized the interest of the client and the Firm. Upon the judgement being received at the level of the Senior Management, the Firm has taken strict action against two associates and have terminated their retainership with immediate effect for their failure to maintain the highest standards required.

8. The Firm’s partner acted responsibly upon the associate accepting the mistake in writing and immediately sought rectification and an application was filed with the Hon’ble Company Law Board for placing fresh affidavits on 7th August, 2012. No undue benefit as a result of the earlier affidavits had accrued to the Petitioner nor any undue prejudice has been caused to the Respondents as no interim reliefs were granted.

9. The Hon’ble Company Law Board has permitted the re-filing of a properly constituted fresh Petition. The client has instructed the Firm’s partner to refile the petition.

Click here to read original story

Comments

Cardiff 20 Aug 2012, 19:33
+16 -0
[...] Why blame the associates, does a partner not review all documents in relation to a matter? It appears not! If I was a client, I would be worried.
cynica 22 Aug 2012, 09:23
+8 -0
i agree....you will notice that nowhere has shroff apologized for the goof up. He has just blamed the associates as if he has nothing to do with it. The client is paying the firm and not the associates and therefore, a goof up by the associates is a goof up which the boss should take responsibility for ....

watch out AMSS associates- shroff takes the credit for any good work done and promptly disowns you if you ever slip up..
Cardiff - again 20 Aug 2012, 19:50
+7 -0
Kian - there was nothing out of the ordinary in my comment that called for a part of it being "censored". Are we worried about an injunction?
Phew 20 Aug 2012, 19:52
+3 -0
What an eyewash....
accepting the mistake in writi 20 Aug 2012, 19:59
+25 -0
So what really must have happened is that they would bombarded the associates with enough work to 'keep them on their toes' and then when they were properly dogged they would have been given this great responsibility. Then they must have called them to some shiny conference room and fed them all kind of crap and got them to 'accept the mistake in writing.' And now comes this press release. I really hope there will be many firms who will take these associates in without paying heed to this fiasco from AMSS and its partners.
Inside Outside 20 Aug 2012, 20:04
+18 -0
Law firms thrive in two things: nepotism and nepotism. If these associates were from the right "background" they would never have been sacked or asked to resign. The question is will they find a job elsewhere? I'd think so.
Outside Inside 20 Aug 2012, 20:19
+12 -0
If nothing else, the Partner is negligent for failure to review, unless it is being claimed that the Associates deliberately hid things from her. When the affidavits are filed in June, and the Partner "notices" the mistakes only in August, how is the Partner maintaining the "highest standard"? Why should she not take responsibility for the embarassment the firm is facing?
Shameless 20 Aug 2012, 20:06
+13 -0
Wow. 'admitted his mistake in writing' ..thats the nail in the coffin in what appear to be completely thoughtless n uttterly desperate efforts on AMSS's part to somehow not come out of this red-faced.

i can picture the poor associate being made to write this stuff in writing with you guys standing on his head. Really - a hindi film style written confession of sorts by your juniour most associate is your defence? Sorry no Takers.

The AMSS Damage-Control-Strategy is seriously hilarious. [...]

[...] great firms are not made of thrusting the blame on hapless juniours working under your instructions -

Yes, u screwed up, yes please take the blame and no please dont malign your poor ex associates. Do the right thing, accpet your mistake.
kianganz 20 Aug 2012, 20:15
+0 -0
If I can pipe up here briefly, apparently, according to what I understand, that 'in writing' apology purported to be from the associate dates from before - around the time the mistake was discovered or so - and was not signed under duress or anything like that afterwards.
Inside Outside 20 Aug 2012, 20:17
+2 -0
Kian - have you seen the apology for yourself?
kianganz 20 Aug 2012, 20:21
+0 -0
No, I haven't seen it, though I don't have reason to doubt that this email exists, but the interpretation is open to debate I guess...
Inside Outside 20 Aug 2012, 20:24
+1 -0
I don't know about others, but what I see is what I believe. I must say I thought you'd be more thorough than this!
Outside Inside 20 Aug 2012, 20:25
+1 -0
[quote name="kianganz"]No, I haven't seen it, though I don't have reason to doubt that this email exists, but the interpretation is open to debate I guess...[/quote]

I gave you several reasons why you should have the "doubt"
Outside Inside 20 Aug 2012, 20:24
+6 -0
[quote name="Inside Outside"]Kian - have you seen the apology for yourself?[/quote]
[quote name="kianganz"]If I can pipe up here briefly, apparently, according to what I understand, that 'in writing' apology purported to be from the associate dates from before - around the time the mistake was discovered or so - and was not signed under duress or anything like that afterwards.[/quote]

Hey Kian, doesn't your last article say that SSS only came to know of the order at 3 pm today? Why is it that the associates were fired today and not in August 6th? When did the Senior Management passe judgement? What were they waiting for? Were they hoping that this will get swept under the carpet and the order has forced their hand? I am not a conspiracy theorist, but surely even you can realize that there is something rotten in the State of Denmark.
kian signed confessions 20 Aug 2012, 20:29
+13 -0
kian, have u ever heard of any firm in india taking something in writing from their associates. Most firms dont even sign anything at the time when an associate joins them. do you mean to tell me that you as an associate would one fine day realise you made a mistake, sit back and draft out a lovely letter in pristine english, sign it with a smile and hand it over to the partner? wake up and smell the roses.

Also, any associate is pretty much under duress for the entire period that she or he works at a law firm such as amss, so I dont think your insights on the jurisprudence of valid contracing even apply in such cases.
kianganz 20 Aug 2012, 20:38
+0 -0
I can't go into sourcing but yes, I am fairly confident that this email exists for what it's worth.

It is not an email "confession" or "contract" - from what I understand, it was an email that was sent by one of the associates to the partner saying, sorry, my bad, I made a mistake in the affidavit, which seems fairly plausible.

Whether that means the partner should be free of blame is another question, but I do have reason to believe that theories of a forced written confession are highly unlikely.

Yes, if I am wrong on this I will be happy to issue a correction.

Since there have been a lot of comments about AMSS, it was fair to publish a statement proffered by the firm explaining more of the background.

We are endeavouring to tell the associates' side of the story too, if they or others wish to, though I understand the difficulties involved.
Outside Inside 20 Aug 2012, 20:45
+6 -0
Ahhh, so the way in which the Partner came to know is when someone confessed, not because she was implementing a highest standards. Figures.
Kian misread George Orwell 21 Aug 2012, 16:26
+4 -0
what is your relationship with amss? Why don't you be honest about the tangible and intangible benefits you derive from particular law firms in India. I think I can speak for a large number of people who would like to know why your stories are always skewed in favour of amss, subtly or otherwise.
kian wakes up late? 22 Aug 2012, 04:55
+0 -0
tick tock tick tock tick tock... everyone is waiting for your response
kianganz 22 Aug 2012, 05:13
+10 -0
I don't think a response is necessary to an allegation which has been made often enough, but since the trolls seem so intent on getting a response, here goes a reality check explanation.

Yes, shock horror, journalists may get invited to parties with drinks and food, conferences with free drinks and food, get taken out to lunch or dinner sometimes, or will get sent small Diwali gifts or the like. Sometimes, journalists may also send out gifts in return to contacts or take them out for lunch or dinner. It is a perfectly natural part of building relationships with contacts.

Some news organisations, particularly the cash-rich ones, have a policy that prevents journalists from accepting any hospitality at all. Most do not. In fact, in the UK and the US this kind of stuff is far more prevalent and journalists are invited on foreign all-expenses-paid trips and more.

But what is ultimately important for any journalist is how you deal with this and whether you let it influence you.

Hand on heart I can say that nothing I or anyone else at LI has ever received in the way of hospitality or otherwise from any law firm, has been material enough or was imparted in a spirit that would make me question whether our coverage can remain independent.

Please judge us by our stories, not by your presumptions or gossip. Our coverage may not be perfect, but we try as best as possible within this market's realities to tell the truth, which is not easy.

Feel free to compare us to any other publications out there or to what legal news journalism was like before Legally India started.

Best regards
Kian
Entrepreneur lawyer! 23 Aug 2012, 14:54
+0 -0
[quote name="kianganz"]I don't think a response is necessary to an allegation which has been made often enough, but since the trolls seem so intent on getting a response, here goes a reality check explanation...[/quote]


Kian,

You have raised some interesting points, but please note UK one of the countries mentioned in your comparison has had the NOTW fiasco and Leevson inquiry on ethical standards in journalism!

Shouldn't LI which no doubt is doing a good job in the field of legal reporting which was practically non-existent also aim to set ethical standards in the field by having a clear policy of no encouraging gifts from law firms. Clearly your correspondents didn't join LI to be in the good books of particular law firms. While you may be able to restrain yourself as the entrepreneur out there to prove yourself, how can you ensure a junior hack is not getting influenced by "small" Diwali gifts and returning favours hoping for an all expenses paid trip to cover a law firm's foreign retreat!

I think as entrepreneurs (I am on too!) we really need to lead by example.
kianganz 23 Aug 2012, 15:17
+2 -0
Thanks for your considered and interesting response on what is an interesting topic when it does not degenerate into abuse.

I agree that in the UK and US press it has perhaps gone a tad too far. I remember a statistic from 3 years ago or so that for the first time ever, the number of PR professionals in the UK was greater than the number of journalists. This is potentially a threat to independent journalism, though it doesn't have to be.

I think disclosure of gifts is practically very hard to do. Should we itemise every time someone buys a drink, or sends us some Mithai or invites us to a party with an all-you-can-eat buffet? I think this would raise more suspicion and cause more confusion than it would solve.

Journalism is fundamentally based on trust. There is a huge amount of trust within the newsroom where stories and ideas are discussed openly, and we trust our colleagues not to lie.

Sources also have to trust journalists, and they may be trusted in turn if they prove trustworthy.

Finally, and most importantly, there has to be a strong bond of trust between the reader and the journalist.

If that bond has become so bad that the reader's trust can only be restored by a full disclosure of the journalist's assets or hospitality received, then in my humble opinion, the journalist has already failed and that reader should move on elsewhere.

Judge a publication intelligently by its content or by its willingness to tolerate and engage in criticism and publish contrary view points. It is too easy to just shout "paid news" every time an article appears that one disagrees with or doesn't understand.

My two cents. Please feel free to disagree.

Best wishes,
Kian
Insider 20 Aug 2012, 20:31
+10 -0
Written admission apology is a blatant example of an afterthought. Kian, will you eat up your words if it turns out that there was actually no written statement or apology on behalf of any of the associates? Have you yourself seen the letter? Did you verify before writing? Why it should not be construed that LI has become a mouthpiece of AMSS? Shame ...
agreed 21 Aug 2012, 16:46
+0 -0
first the news and now next day a clarification to LI -- a long email !!
KT 20 Aug 2012, 20:11
+3 -0
Well the associates are the ones I wouldnt worry about. Every one knows how firms like AMSS function [...] They will find themselves many who will sympathise and take them on board. [...]
Amazed 20 Aug 2012, 20:19
+10 -0
I'm amazed [...]. So maybe the associates did mess up, but shouldn't the firm take responsibility given that the two were associates of the firm and trained by the firm to achieve the allegedly "highest standards" of work?

I sincerely hope that the two of them do find greener pastures because compared to working at AMSS even a [...]
Amazed 20 Aug 2012, 20:36
+3 -0
Ok to rephrase my initial comment - I'm shocked by the reaction of the firm. Even those doing menial labour deserve better than this. - is this appropriate kian or it doesn't meet the highest standards?
LASTPOST 20 Aug 2012, 20:35
+9 -0
mr moderator - i dont think you should be offended when readers use the word 'exploitative; for our dear old firm amss, coz thats what it is. Care to reduce your sensibilities a wee bit when it comes to law firms?
Anon 20 Aug 2012, 21:58
+3 -2
One lesson hopefully it does send through all firms is for associates will need to be more careful. The days if careless sloppy work are over . There is surely a positive quality message in this episode . Why should associates think that there is only a one way street of endless wants and desires. Good wake up call for a the hundreds of mediocre associates in many firms. Very good amss . Great service to other firms. These brats are totally spoilt and think the firms run because of them . Only caveat is the manner in which mr shroff is handling leaves lot to be desired in maturity. He should take advise instead of being trigger happy. Poor show there.
anon 21 Aug 2012, 03:55
+1 -0
Totally agree. Accountability is pretty much absent is most Indian law firms. Good for AMSS.
Brat No. 1 21 Aug 2012, 04:20
+17 -0
"The days 'if' careless sloppy work" are over for you as well my friend
enigma 21 Aug 2012, 02:11
+3 -0
In my opinion, responsibility lies on both sides. It's the Associate's job to do the job well and it's the Partner's job to vet the Associate's work.One question worth examining is the level of PQE of the Associate.If he/she is below 2PQE and makes a mistake then it should be pardonable given the level of experience being less than 2. Possibly, also, the Associate might have been flodded with work and billing targets and hence, the mistake!!It would help, if the Partner took responsibility as much as the Associate did and the firm either fired both the Partner as well as Associate or none of them. Justice should not only be done but seen to be done!
obvious 21 Aug 2012, 02:14
+2 -0
isn't it obvious wht happened here - Kian must have called Shardul asking about the order, and Shardul must have asked him to hold off till he fired two people as a damage control exercise. Way to go on leading from the front.
anon 21 Aug 2012, 05:19
+5 -0
my money is that they were fired because amss is going to ask the court to modify the order on the basis that they have taken action against the associates and so the court should expunge the remarks against amss. id have thought amss had broader shoulders than this and that if it was protecting its partner it would protect its associates too.
Shocked 21 Aug 2012, 02:36
+8 -0
Way to inspire loyalty amss.

Retain associates who in six yrs haven't worked twenty hours and fire those that work 20 hours a day.
Shame 21 Aug 2012, 02:54
+7 -0
Shame on AMSS and shame on LI for this censoring. With smaller firms, LI shamelessly allows personal statements but not for a big firm!! In the earlier article I praised LI for reporting this story but this censoring is plain strange. An earlier comment where I only mentioned Cyril being better than Shardul was censored!! Why Kian?? Please dont do this and make us lose faith in you and LI.

As for AMSS - this is such an eyewash and a sham. They should be ashamed.
anon 21 Aug 2012, 03:49
+0 -0
I think its a big step for any firm to actually admit they have made a mistake! Most firms are too egoistical to do so! To that extent AMSS is ahead!
Jaggerth 21 Aug 2012, 05:08
+3 -0
I think once that mistake is enshrined in an order of a court, there's not much they could have done. You really think this is the first mistake that AMSS is making? It's just the first one which has been mentioned explicitly in a court order.

[quote name="anon"]I think its a big step for any firm to actually admit they have made a mistake! Most firms are too egoistical to do so! To that extent AMSS is ahead![/quote]
anon 21 Aug 2012, 06:50
+1 -0
Everybody makes mistakes sometimes big ones- Nobody admits to these mistakes a court order or otherwise. Usually no one gets sacked - the same partner/sa/ associate in fact usually goes on to get promoted. As the mistake has been acknowledged Amss is different.
Anon 22 Aug 2012, 08:23
+0 -0
[quote name="Jaggerth"]I think once that mistake is enshrined in an order of a court, there's not much they could have done. You really think this is the first mistake that AMSS is making? It's just the first one which has been mentioned explicitly in a court order.

[quote name="anon"]I think its a big step for any firm to actually admit they have made a mistake! Most firms are too egoistical to do so! To that extent AMSS is ahead![/quote][/quote]


good one!!
areyoukiddin? 21 Aug 2012, 05:11
+2 -0
The only reasons amss admitted it is because they were probably confronted with the order by LI - and it isn't exactly admitting a mistake when you make associates the fall guys/girls while protecting the partner.
danone 21 Aug 2012, 05:24
+4 -0
[quote name="anon"]I think its a big step for any firm to actually admit they have made a mistake! Most firms are too egoistical to do so! To that extent AMSS is ahead![/quote]

So the Amarchand propaganda machine has finally kicked into action.
smart v stupid 21 Aug 2012, 06:55
+2 -0
[quote name="anon"]Most firms are too egoistical to do so![/quote] Most firms would have known how to deal with this without getting into the sacking or publicity quagmire.
Jaggerth 21 Aug 2012, 04:54
+17 -0
So if the apology was made around the time the mistake was discovered, was the associate's services terminated because of the mistake, or because of the publicity the mistake received? From the sequence of events I can only conclude it's the latter, which makes AMSS look less than professional, and suggests that they were perhaps hoping that the mistake would be somehow 'swept under the carpet.' I feel very sorry for the Associate and the PA-designate, but maybe this is a good wake-up call for all the people working at AMSS that you are nothing but a dispensible/disposable "resource" for the firm, slightly more important than the furniture and fixtures (perhaps) but not quite as high up as the data servers and other IT resources.
Zee 21 Aug 2012, 05:00
+4 -1
I think this whole issue has been blown out of proportion by LI and readers comments. A firm's overall reputation should not be judged by such a minor error when it has done such great work in the past.

This looks like an AZB conspiracy to tarnish Amarchand's image.
? 21 Aug 2012, 06:51
+0 -0
Dude are u serious-wake up!!
associate 21 Aug 2012, 07:26
+31 -0
Yes there is an entry in the AZB timesheet software - time spent to tarnish Amarchand's reputation!
SI 21 Aug 2012, 11:53
+0 -0
Hahaha. Good one!
V for Vendetta 21 Aug 2012, 05:07
+0 -0
This is a strategy by competitors to tarnish AMSS' reputation.
readtheorder 21 Aug 2012, 05:40
+6 -0
i think firing two associates and protecting the partner in such a blatant way is a great way for amss to tarnish its own reputation. now that its salaries are no longer the highest, this will serve as a warning to associates to stay away from amss [...]
Legally Appalled 21 Aug 2012, 13:49
+1 -0
please share the copy of the order.
Legally Appalled 21 Aug 2012, 13:52
+0 -0
i don't think so...this is the age old foreign hand argument...this time AMSS was caught with its hand in the cookie jar...poor excuse for not standing up for your colleagues...distasteful...
Goodlawyer 21 Aug 2012, 05:10
+2 -0
the term 'associate level retainer' is so frequently and intentionally. On would have expected Shardul to make a more mature statement accepting the product as the firm's product (which is what they flaunt and sell!). Notwithstanding the highest standards of professional practice and integrity and professionalism and unblemished record, the reality is that it is not the first time quality from Amarchand has been an issue. It is just the first time a court has fined them! Making associate level retainers (although one was a principal associate) scapegoats will not change anything. They have enjoyed the brand over the years but now with very effective alternate firms (who Cyril claims charge one tenth thier fee), their days of dominance are short lived.
Step back 21 Aug 2012, 05:34
+15 -0
Someone rightly points out that this incident would not in any way effect AMSS's stranglehold. What it does however show is what they think of their Associates. The Associates are nothing more than a resource which can be easily replaced and conveniently hung out to dry. When *hit hits the fan, they are easily discarded and made scapegoats. Thats the take away. What a message this incident sends to bright young lawyers who commit themselves to such an institution. AMSS doesnt deserve the best of lawyers because they simply dont care about their lawyers. They pay them well and then feel like they own every aspect of the lawyer - her personal life, her professional life, her dignity, everything. And this is a sad state of affairs at what is supposed to be the premier firm in the country.

Even fictional law based serials have stories where an Associates screw up, the fall is taken by the Partner. What is the meaning of a Partner if they only take in the limelight and never the fall!
readtheorder 21 Aug 2012, 05:38
+5 -0
i have read the order and the defects in the affidavit aren't the only reason amss were rebuked. apparently the clb found that the affidavits were not signed in the presence of the notary as should be the case. is amss purposely not highlighting this because this is a practice they indulge in all the time and they just happened to get caught out this time?
a naan, butter naan 21 Aug 2012, 06:06
+1 -0
can you please send the link or post the order pls?
ex AMSS 21 Aug 2012, 06:04
+37 -0
I can't believe that legally india published this one sided story. This really is 'times of india' styled reporting. The truth is that the associates had already pointed out the problem weeks ago. The partner not only refused to take action but also accused the associates of taking money from the other side. At this point, one of the associates resigned! While he was on notice period, the problem that had been brought to the Partner's notice exploded. Amarchand tried to save face by saying the associates had been sacked whereas one had already resigned due to the partner's refusal to address the problem.

I wish legally india had done its home work before writing this article that has the potential of ruining the careers of two hard working people.

Has anybody made an investigation into how many people have resigned from this partner's team in the past one year?

Sad day for journalism
Assocs 21 Aug 2012, 06:16
+21 -0
The two associates should sue AMSS for wrongful termination and for defaming them. Even if it does not succeed, at least it will teach AMSS a lesson that it should not treat its employees as chattel.
mad 31 Aug 2012, 12:11
+0 -0
[quote name="Assocs"]The two associates should sue AMSS for wrongful termination and for defaming them. Even if it does not succeed, at least it will teach AMSS a lesson that it should not treat its employees as chattel.[/quote]

i agree with you, to protect the partner or firm credibility they can't make others scapegoat, i have seen their way of work from very close, i don't believe that, the Associates did mistake without partners knowledge
Legally Absurd 21 Aug 2012, 06:18
+4 -0
[quote name="ex AMSS"]I can't believe that legally india published this one sided story. This really is 'times of india' styled reporting. The truth is that the associates had already pointed out the problem weeks ago. The partner not only refused to take action but also accused the associates of taking money from the other side. At this point, one of the associates resigned! While he was on notice period, the problem that had been brought to the Partner's notice exploded. Amarchand tried to save face by saying the associates had been sacked whereas one had already resigned due to the partner's refusal to address the problem.

I wish legally india had done its home work before writing this article that has the potential of ruining the careers of two hard working people.

Has anybody made an investigation into how many people have resigned from this partner's team in the past one year?

Sad day for journalism[/quote]
Agree completely with this!!
Chemical Kapadia 21 Aug 2012, 06:13
+1 -1
O Stop whining!! those associates got what they asked for. You are not in college anymore. the perks your recieve is top notch in the market therefore the level of accuracy expected from you is well justified. The firm has carved out its name in the market not by allowing such fools to thrive on their mistakes but by being mechanically accurate and ruthless when it comes to execution of what it stands for and medicrity is not one of them. Its is easy to jump you guns and blame the so called bigh-bad-firm.
Inside Outside 21 Aug 2012, 06:22
+9 -0
No one is disagreeing but then why should below average partners be allowed to stay on [...]. Oh but wait, I can sense your unease, perhaps you both sail in the same boat. It's fun isn't it? Making the crores and basking in the glory for work you never do. And hey if something goes wrong, well tough luck, sack the small fish as they made the mistake, you were too busy pursuing other interests (ahem ahem)!
Legally Appalled 21 Aug 2012, 07:08
+6 -0
You are absolutely correct!! ahem ahem... What is applicable for the geese is also applicable for the gander. Firstly the review system has been evolved to precisely cover such mistakes. AMSS charges its clients a bomb for what...yeah the associate billing for the matter... I am sure Ritu Bhall would have billed for the matter...if she has billed then that is the end of the story...she is to be held accountable and not the poor associates...there is something known as collective responsibility...this witch hunting is just in poor taste...unfortunate...
Belemonte 21 Aug 2012, 07:11
+2 -0
Just so I understand your perspective - level of accuracy is professionalism hence we are not in college anymore - but snitching and blaming the team is something that the professional world requires us to do is it? I see. I see. Any other great understanding of the world?
abc 21 Aug 2012, 08:48
+1 -0
haha - are you serious ? "mechanically accurate" ?! Thats funny - do you actually believe thats how AMSS (or any other firm in India) actually work ?

Look - the fact is that the quality of legal services in India is generally not as good as it should be. Partners, who dont do what they are paid to do is part of the problem.

Lets not live in fairy tale land about what happens at big firms in India.
SI 21 Aug 2012, 11:56
+0 -0
The problem is not that the associates were fired. Their senior was shielded so shamefully. Highly unprofessional!
Legally Appalled 22 Aug 2012, 10:35
+0 -0
[quote name="Chemical Kapadia"]O Stop whining!! those associates got what they asked for. You are not in college anymore. the perks your recieve is top notch in the market therefore the level of accuracy expected from you is well justified. The firm has carved out its name in the market not by allowing such fools to thrive on their mistakes but by being mechanically accurate and ruthless when it comes to execution of what it stands for and medicrity is not one of them. Its is easy to jump you guns and blame the so called bigh-bad-firm.[/quote]

Your reaction reminds of a hindi movie in which they suggested a novel way of removing poverty...remove the poor...so great reasoning for maintaining a high level of accuracy..remove those who make mistakes...hilarious...actually...legen...wait for it...wait for it...dary...legendary
kianganz 21 Aug 2012, 06:27
+1 -0
Anyone who has a copy of the order, could they please upload it somewhere or send a copy to legallyindia [attherateof] gmail dot com?

We are trying to get a copy from the CLB also, but if someone has a softcopy we'd be much obliged and it would save a lot of time.

We have been facing some technical issues with our other email IDs so if anyone has been sending us any emails in the last day, they may not have reached. Apologies for any inconvenience.
Bangalore Lawyer 21 Aug 2012, 06:28
+4 -0
Had this been a foreign law firm, they would have accepted the blame in the name of the firm, particularly the entire team and not just the Associates.
associate 21 Aug 2012, 06:56
+6 -0
Yes right. We are just a bunch of lawyers from a developing country. The firms in the developed countries are perfect. Seriously.
Three Cheers 21 Aug 2012, 07:00
+2 -0
Looks like the AMSS propaganda team is gasping to fight back but can't keep up with the genuine and fair public assessment of AMSS 'Senior Management' conduct.

Wish AMSS would rise above the "mediocrity" and display the so called "ruthlessness" at all levels of the heirarchy? Or is "mechanical accuracy" not a standard for the loyalists?

Is Chemical Kapadia sermonising associates on behalf of AMSS Senior Management? Way to go!Great way to "carve its name" in the market!
PR 21 Aug 2012, 06:51
+7 -0
Hey can anyone give me the id of the HR at amarchand? I would like to apply for the vacant positions. You see, I am good at proof reading and I have always wanted [...]
Email 21 Aug 2012, 07:04
+25 -0
Hawki 21 Aug 2012, 06:54
+0 -0
Dear Kian,

The partner in-charge must take the blame but clearly this is also a question of some really shoddy work done by the associates. The issue is more to do with the lack of focus and the great keenness to take short cuts, i.e., go with a precedent based approach as against a slower and painful approach involving a proper review and diligence for each document that is sent.

I would also not be surprised if an intern worked on the documents and everyone up the chain assumed that the work was done. To conclude:

I. The partner must be held responsible.

II. One wouldn't expect the managing partner to run through each document that the firm sends but he must ensure that there are enough checks and balances in the system that prevent these occurrences.

III. It is time that lawyers and professionals are held responsible and liable for their advice/actions.

IV. Foreign law firms should be allowed to practice in India (probably limited advisory work) as their entry will set better standards for the local market.

Best wishes
S 21 Aug 2012, 07:15
+6 -0
If the managing partner is CHARGING the hours, he is completely responsible for the mess.

While I accept that partners cannot always oversee each document, I am frustrated to pay their bills when they charge their hours for reviewing each and every document.

-- An in-house counsel, paying Partner invoices
SMM 21 Aug 2012, 08:45
+0 -0
I absolutely agree. The big firms charge partner's fees, but the partners are too busy bringing in new clients & entertaining the bigger clients and do not pay attention to the work which is done. I received advise from a senior partner who had not read the papers and when I pointed it out to him, he got upset. I also took my work to a smaller firm who give the requisite attention and held back the partner's fees
Legally Appalled 21 Aug 2012, 06:56
+2 -0
It is actually wonderful news. Was it not AMSS which was opposing entry of foreign firms into India. One can figure why. They promote incompetence and will not be able to compete against much professional foreign firms. Further, sacking of the associates sends out a good message. It shows to the world that at AMSS work is actually done by associates and senior associates and the partners rarely contribute in value addition. Therefore, it is much better to go to individual counsels or smaller firms where actual value addition happens from the partners. This act of AMSS to sack the associates is completely deplorable and in bad taste. Unfortunately the associates are over worked. They generally work 16-18 hours a day and on many matters. Thus, such oversight is likely. I am sure if labour laws were applicable for lawyers, then associates at AMSS would surely get justice. Anyways the entire system of an associate's work being reviewed is in place only to cover such goof ups. The partner should take the entire responsibility. The principle of collective and moral responsibility could not have been more applicable. If some thing good is done by the associates the partners are more than happy to take credit but no blame will lie at their end when the associate makes a mistake.

Kian it is very unfortunate that your article is more of a cover up for AMSS's faults. AMSS has gotten so much coverage for no rhyme or reason as such things happen many times, especially with big firms dealing with small clients due to less time being devoted by the partner incharge. It is unfortunate that the associates who are just beginning in the profession have to take the blame. Also remember that official email ids are controlled by AMSS and any apology could have easily written by the administrators. Therefore, so much for the official apology.
kianganz 21 Aug 2012, 07:10
+0 -0
Dear Readers

Thanks for your comments and apologies for the, at times, heavy-handed moderation.

In moderating comments we are often between a rock and a hard place, and are trying to steer a fair course that allows freedom of expression while avoiding personal attacks on individuals.

Please help us in this effort and bear this in mind.

Best wishes
Kian
Sigh!!! 21 Aug 2012, 07:32
+1 -0
If only the same standards applied to Firms and individuals other than AMSS
Free Speech! 21 Aug 2012, 07:17
+10 -0
My comment on the potential differential treatment of the matter had the two associates been management's own children should not have been censored.
anon 21 Aug 2012, 07:18
+1 -0
It is not too many years before wherein AMSS Delhi office was representing 2 different parties in one and same transaction (of course, not as transaction counsel)! That seemed to be the height!
Ex AMSS 21 Aug 2012, 07:20
+5 -0
A famous quote apt now- when a partner gives a wrong opinion it means the associates have not done good research!

It is common knowledge how mails are sent from partner email accounts by associates. Look out for the Ref no in certain partner mails and you will know what I am talking. Some of the other partners don't use reference numbers.

It is an illusion that AMSS is good. [...]
Dabang 21 Aug 2012, 08:59
+3 -0
Which in turn means interns have not done research properly. while interns work for free, firms charge for partners hours.
Disgust 21 Aug 2012, 07:25
+7 -0
Kian

I hope Bar and Bench does fair and dispassionate reporting and doesn't appear like the personal pimp of AMSS like LI is now. U guys have fallen in everyone's eyes!
Malpractice 21 Aug 2012, 07:38
+4 -0
[quote name="Disgust"]Kian

I hope Bar and Bench does fair and dispassionate reporting and doesn't appear like the personal pimp of AMSS like LI is now. U guys have fallen in everyone's eyes![/quote]

They haven't reported this yet. That probably is a greater favour to AMSS.
BB 21 Aug 2012, 08:24
+10 -0
How would they? After all, AMSS is their "knowledge partner"
Perpendiculal 21 Aug 2012, 09:14
+2 -0
Wonder why B&B have avoided this issue? Something AM(i)SS
kianganz 21 Aug 2012, 09:29
+1 -0
To be fair, I do believe they are following it up, though it is not an easy story to report...
No Kian 21 Aug 2012, 09:45
+4 -0
Now Come on Kian. B&B is following up a story and you published it! It's always been like they publish a story and then you write a story with lot of masalas making it a Salman Khan movie (and don't we love it)..B&B is not going to publish it..
kianganz 21 Aug 2012, 12:34
+3 -0
Thanks, but I would beg to differ on that.

For what it's worth, if you were to add up all the scoops I am confident you'd count far more at LI than at any other legal publication in India. And unlike most, we'll also generally try to attribute other publications when they get the scoop.

George Orwell famously said: "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed: everything else is public relations."

If journalism is perceived as massala, so be it.
Disgust not misplaced at all 22 Aug 2012, 14:44
+0 -0
[quote name="Disgust"]Kian

I hope Bar and Bench does fair and dispassionate reporting and doesn't appear like the personal pimp of AMSS like LI is now. U guys have fallen in everyone's eyes![/quote]

See the comments starting at 5.1 above and Kian's responses on the matter. Strangely further comments on Kian's response and not being permitted by LI. Pathetic attempt at portraying that Kian had the last say on the discussion.
kianganz 22 Aug 2012, 20:52
+0 -0
Sorry, am just going through the comments - sometimes, due to the flood of comments, some may have escaped approval.

In response to "Disgust not misplaced at all" - in this thread yours was actually the only comment responding to mine.

If you have anything substantive to add beyond speculatively trolling me, which I bet is an entertaining pastime, please do.

Best wishes,
Kian
Strategy 21 Aug 2012, 07:34
+8 -0
Where is the AMSS' 'Strategy' team? Is this what they came up with in the name of crisis management? Surely the 'new and improved', "professionalised" AMSS could have handled this uh.. I don't know...more "professionally"?

Must have been a strategy implemented by a junior in the Strategy team WITHOUT Senior Management approval... Tsk Tsk
Anonymous 21 Aug 2012, 07:45
+5 -0
No, no this brilliant plan of action is a joint work product of the various "professional" departments of "professionalised" AMSS- Strategy, HR and corporate communications- hence it is such a gem!
Sham 21 Aug 2012, 09:47
+2 -0
These teams are nothing but a sham. Puppets in the hands of the family. And they know what their job description is very well.
I mean...really... 21 Aug 2012, 07:43
+0 -0
Ex AMSS above hit it on the head. This is singling out and bashing on a faceless forum - no doubt what has happened is an error but really, is it so material and so unusual, that it has to generate this level of commenting and dirts. Why is one expecting a higher degree of responsibility and chivalry from AM - they are a firm, just like others. Is it because they claim to be one of the (if not THE) best but is it cause enough? Or is it just 'sour grapes'? Before you get all riled up, please understand that in all fairness, this is an intrinsic problem of every organization that delegates work - there are differently ripened apples (note the omission of the word 'bad' please, all ye defenders of human rights of the relevant Associates) that need to be cast out from time to time. Not every resource can handle responsibility adequately and in such case its better to let them go,which is what happens in every service provider. Unfortunately in this case, it has happened subsequent to the damage - whether that in itself is a colourable exercise, am not sure. As someone who has been closely working with various firms, GCs and litigators for over a decade now, I am aware of similar (an am deliberately avoiding the usage of worse) screw-ups by law firms and advocates but this is the first time am seeing this degree of furore - also it is fairly common for lawyers to get fined in India (see what a simple google search (India) with lawyer fined turns up). Whilst it is not humanly possible nor is it desirable from a growth standpoint that every scrap of paper is reviewed by one's senior, I agree that when a blunder does happen,the organization as a whole needs to be apologetic. How they handle the cause of the screw-up internally is left to them. The fact that this could have been handled better is not in question: but does bad handling publicly and firing people internally for seemingly apparent errors necessarily mean palming off of liability/ responsibility or malafides - thats debatable.
@ I mean 21 Aug 2012, 12:24
+4 -0
You may have missed the tone of all the comments here. The comments against AMSS is not because they made a mistake but because of the way they handled it - the way they made juniors scapegoats and shielded the partner in charge. The matter has been handled unprofessionally and the whole thing is in poor taste. Mistakes are not acceptable, yet they are unavoidable sometimes. On such occassions, a firm of AMSS' stature should be able to own up and handle it gracefully rather than firing two hapless associates, who (from what i understand from the comments above and now know for a fact) had already informed the senior about the mistake and tried to mitigate it too. I guess the point is, AMSS and all these other firms should really stop treating associates like this.
I mean...really... 21 Aug 2012, 17:33
+0 -0
" I agree that when a blunder does happen,the organization as a whole needs to be apologetic. How they handle the cause of the screw-up internally is left to them. The fact that this could have been handled better is not in question: but does bad handling publicly and firing people internally for seemingly apparent errors necessarily mean palming off of liability/ responsibility or malafides - thats debatable.". you were saying?
Bobbandopdhyay 24 Aug 2012, 03:15
+0 -0
One clarification about your post. In my experience, no lawyer has ever been fined by a court. What you are probably calling a fine is what is called imposition of 'costs' when the courts feel that there time has been wasted. That is not a fine and is not levied on the lawyer unless the lawyer is a party himself or herself. It's just that the press who are remarkably ignorant of the court processes often mis-report imposition of costs as a fine.
www.get-a-grip.org 21 Aug 2012, 08:10
+2 -0
to all those guys who are still harping on "mistakes do happen", say this to the client whose money, time and business might be at stake because of your "mistake do happen" theory.
You still feel bad, neglected or used by your firm or your senior, let me put it this way; the world was never fair. If you still feel being handed out a raw deal, type in your name and move-on to that utopian place you have been striving for all your life.
Advocate 21 Aug 2012, 08:24
+3 -1
these two Associates must be from any National Law school. the people those who do their LLB from these elite law schools are flooded with all the Big Firms and these people do not have an understanding of procedural laws.
Kian? 21 Aug 2012, 08:30
+3 -0
And this statement does not require censoring Kian? Doesnt it imply that the two Associates do not have an understanding of procedural laws? Isnt that a personal attack! What sad double standards you adopt. Of course if the comment was that Shroffs do not understand procedural laws, you would have censored it.
kianganz 21 Aug 2012, 08:39
+2 -0
1. I think it's fairly obvious that [36] is a troll, and a bad one at that, though the debate of Law School products vs law school products is a perennial one.

2. It is obviously a joke, perhaps even satire, and I'd think associates would understand that?

3. 'These people' is referring to a very large group of people of national law school graduates. I do not think it is possible to insult, defame or otherwise be mean to such an amorphous and varied group.

4. We have not published the associates' identities and we hope to keep it that way, unless circumstances change significantly.

Our comment moderation policy is not a one size fits all approach, and we never claimed it is. But if you really have a problem, press the report button and give a valid reason and we'll be happy to examine.

Best regards
Kian
Good intention 21 Aug 2012, 09:35
+1 -0
Notwithstanding your noble intentions, the order clearly indicates the names of the two Associates concerned.
Good Question 21 Aug 2012, 11:01
+0 -0
[quote name="kianganz"]1. I think it's fairly obvious that 42 is a troll, and a bad one at that...[/quote]

who is 42?

[Sorry - a technical glitch that displayed the wrong comment numbering for me, hence my wrong reference. I was referring to commenter 36. Best regards, Kian]
rahul 21 Aug 2012, 12:09
+0 -0
truth about law firms like amarchand. They are big because at all point of time they have managed something or the other. They are very much like our indian politicians
Bangalore Lawyer 23 Aug 2012, 13:20
+1 -0
Don't think the purpose of 36 is to troll. It is just one of the conclusions he has derived and is not completely wrong. NLS pass outs are no doubt brilliant and talented but they do goof up when it comes to litigation (quite possible for a fresher or junior) due to lack of understanding in procedural laws.
Question for Advocate 22 Aug 2012, 05:27
+0 -0
What makes you believe that people from other law universities have a better understanding of "procedural laws"? Like all law universities, the National ones also offer compulsory courses on the procedural laws.

And if this bit of my comment is not moderated, I'd say that the graduates of the NLUs at least have a better grasp of law, which is why they are recruited by both foreign and domestic firms.
associate 21 Aug 2012, 08:33
+3 -0
I guess .. AMSS has forgotten the cardinal principal of team work ...

you siwm together ---- you sink together (including the partner).. so of AMSS has guts, then they shoudl fire the partner as well...

not a good message sent through this practice ... associates woudl stop taking any additional responsibilities.
Client 21 Aug 2012, 08:46
+9 -0
[...]:
(1) Any document created by the firms resources (Clerk/Steno/Para-Legal/Associate/S.A./Partner) is a product of the firm. Good/bad or otherwise. When it comes to taking credit then somehow the Firm takes precedence over individuals.
(2) Law is a profession which calls for utmost caution at all times from any responsible professional. However, at the end of the day everyone is human, mistakes do happen at times and as good lawyers we must know how remedy the mistake, rather than letting things get out of hand. What kind of a leader points fingers at the easiest scapegoat /target i.e. Associates. "Collective responsibility, share in profits and success is the only way forward for the modern law firm" ~ Aristocratic firms like AMSS will learn their lesson when they begin to slide.
(3) I can only wonder what kind of faith and trust the Managing Partner of a firm will inspire in his workforce after this kind of conduct. Am sure many are considering alternatives already.
(4) Why was the Partner not fired? A partner defines the systems and work process within his/her team, hires competent lawyers delivering the 'highest standard of work', is directly the face of the firm to the Client. The answer seems obvious the Partner generates revenue and brings clients. Well if it weren't for the Staff-Associates-S.A.-P.A. AMSS would never be known for these so called highest standards of work, because almost all deliverables to Clients are generated by them.

Reputation can only take you that far. Don't fool your Clients.
Hari Sadu 21 Aug 2012, 09:09
+28 -0
Hello to the respectful persons of this forum. Myself the Hari Sadu. Now, I am doing work for the Naukri portal. I ask the learned peoples reading this whether I have to take any permissions like copyrights and other things for using this story for our next advertisement "Guess who has heard from us"? Any helps will be appreciated.
Citizen 21 Aug 2012, 09:11
+12 -0
Without going into the veracity of claims, it needs to be recognized that such a news, if true, has only been broken by Legallyindia and they need to be encouraged to have stood holding their head high against a giant AMSS.

Everyone would give gyaan for governance but many at Bar and few at Bench also tremble. It's a shame that if there was a counter to this news, why it has not come out at any other website. Is there a managed silence? Whosoever believes in fair reporting, please dig deep and keep doing the good work.
Wondering 21 Aug 2012, 09:38
+6 -0
It is a show of poor leadership when a Partner deserts his team in bad times. The partners take accolades for a task well accomplished by their team, so why not stand by them in bad times. It shows lack of leadership skills and ethics in Shardul Shroff to fire Associates.

All of us in legal fraternity know how overloaded with work one person can get at times. And no matter how old AMSS might be, one must remember corporations have collapsed because of similar arrogance and mistreatment of employees.
Lessons Learnt 21 Aug 2012, 10:22
+1 -0
1. Law School doesnot teach you practice and procedures. They can be leart only by practising in courts. So, law firms are ill-advised to recruit freshers or lawyers with no lit background in their lit teams.

2. Mistakes do happen. But a series of mistakes only shows that there is lack of accountability at higher levels. It's an open secret that seniors with heavy packages do not want to be held accountable. This practice must change. Or, the pay structure should be inverted!

3. Sacking the associates for face-saving will undermine confidence and instill fear. Juniors will just try and keep their senior happy and shirk responsibility to survive in law firms.
Meerkat 21 Aug 2012, 10:25
+9 -0
Sounds like a silly little mistake, most likely the product of using previous templates to knock out work in a short period of time. Some blank spaces, some irregularities in an affidavit. Bound to happen when you're relying upon a template and filling in details in a rush.

I'd hate to get fired for something like that. Hate it even more if my boss went on a public forum and pointed it out to the world, ignoring that there was someone else in the hierarchy whose job it was to oversee my work.

Such is life. Sigh!

When will lawyers.... all lawyers... realize that law is an individualistic profession? You stick up for yourself. You work for yourself. If you're brilliant, people will come to you for advise. You don't need to slave away at a firm like AMZB Legal etc etc.

Introspect young padavans. There are far far better things ahead.
Anon 21 Aug 2012, 10:40
+2 -0
Typical - sacked the junior-most. Small fries getting caught up. The last we checked, supervision was the partners' responsibility.
vella 21 Aug 2012, 10:47
+1 -0
so this has been a good read...just shows that our lawyer junta is talented but vella at the same time-i'd blame it on the poor market condition;
having said that and being vella myself, i find it quite hard to believe that a 3 year assoc had an affidavit filed which had blanks/empty spaces or filed one with forged signatures-i mean forget an intern, a layman knows that once you are presenting something finally before anyone, be it another contracting or a state authority/court/tribunal, it has to be a complete document. i guess we would never get to know what actually happened unless there is a "my life" moment for the associates who got fired once they reach fag ends of their legal careers. as for the blame, i agree a 100% that the liability is joint and several (its a partnership at the end of the day)and should have been taken with a pinch of salt by the firm instead of playing the highly popular corporate game of scapegoating.
there have been some scarring remarks in the above chain of comments abt the assoc as well as against Kian which are not only unworthy of criticism but are appalling to say the least. the assoc must be growing through enough torment already and this certain doesnt help. heck, the firm must be going through a tough time-not only do they have to handle bad publicity (i do hope the phrase any publicity is good publicity is not something the firm stands by) but they have to try fervently to retain the client!
as for blaming this forum, on the flip side, had this forum not been there we wouldnt have even known abt such a thing.
AVIJIT ROY 21 Aug 2012, 11:28
+3 -0
I think its a knee jerk reaction by Amarchand. Although the mistake is serious,but, these young associates could have been warned first instead of dismissal and the lead Partner ought to have kept tab on what his/her associates are doing.

In Court practices , mistakes happens and Court also knows it. Although , these sacking may give message to clients that they maintain highest professional standards but may create fear fobia in the mind of all associates and sr. associates and may effect their zeal to deliver. At the outset, my personal opinion is that these two associates could have been warned first instead of dismissal. However, I agree that it is the absolute discretion of Amarchand to take any decision as per their policy.

The above is totally my personal view.
Read the order 21 Aug 2012, 11:49
+13 -0
Guys, request you to go through the Para 7 of the alleged Order. Can you believe such an advise could have been imparted to the Client without the knowledge of the Partner? While you further read the order, you would understand that that the initial mistakes could have been rectified at an earlier stage itself. Obvious that the Partner strategised to cover up and eventually kept piling on the mistakes. Is it not the duty of the partner to own up such apparent mistake in strategy and protect its associates, one of whom has actually invested 16 hrs of his daily life in his just 7 month old litigation career? Yes, 16 hrs and he is only 7 month old in litigation. How many of the litigation lawyers amongst us can raise their hands and say they have not committed graver mistakes than this in their entire career? Very few or may be none.
Order 21 Aug 2012, 12:30
+0 -0
Where is a copy of the order. Any link?
Legally Appalled 21 Aug 2012, 13:47
+0 -0
Where is the copy of the order. Was unable to find it on CLB website. Please share.
krk 21 Aug 2012, 12:02
+2 -0
I have seen law firms plagiarise content from blogs and internet resources without confirming the veracity. Then they package it as their own opinion and charge hefty fees.

I can speak from experience that the quality of work done by the so called "top notch" firms is pathetic and mostly copy-paste stuff. Associates are only worried about getting their retainers and laze around on their computers.
tendliya 21 Aug 2012, 12:23
+2 -0
100th comment is mine. century century.... non AMSS asscts time to go home and follow this on your phone/ lappie/ ipad, AMSS asscts please go to the cafeterias and discuss.
Dear LI 21 Aug 2012, 13:02
+4 -0
[quote name="tendliya"]100th comment is mine. century century.... non AMSS asscts time to go home and follow this on your phone/ lappie/ ipad, AMSS asscts please go to the cafeterias and discuss.[/quote]

LI, how did you allow this comment? My mind has gone numb because of this one extremely stupid comment. Moreover, this guy says "lappie"..juvenile.
Tendliya 21 Aug 2012, 17:49
+3 -0
[quote name="Dear LI"][quote name="tendliya"]100th comment is mine. century century.... non AMSS asscts time to go home and follow this on your phone/ lappie/ ipad, AMSS asscts please go to the cafeterias and discuss.[/quote]

LI, how did you allow this comment? My mind has gone numb because of this one extremely stupid comment. Moreover, this guy says "lappie"..juvenile.[/quote]

Well, if you could not detect the obvious undertone of sarcasm in the post, which (let me clarify for the benefit of the 'numb" mind of yours) sarcasm and incredulity was also meant to extend to the brouhaha around this incident and some over the top reactions it was drawing, i know not what to say to you. And please follow some etiquette and keep your geriatric/ jejune ( apply as you deem fit) perceptions of juvenility to your esteemed self.
duh 22 Aug 2012, 08:18
+3 -0
eff off, lappie.
Anton Chekhov 21 Aug 2012, 12:33
+2 -0
Jus wondering what kind of a precedent this wud set for fresh associates in Amerchand. If I were one (thank god i am not), I would be trembling in my boots everytime I went to file an affidavit. An associate with 1/2 years of experience wud not, in many cases, be even able to distinguish right from wrong. And large law firms in India singularly lack good training for junior associates.
TAI 21 Aug 2012, 13:26
+3 -0
[quote name="Anton Chekhov"]Jus wondering what kind of a precedent this wud set for fresh associates in Amerchand. If I were one (thank god i am not), I would be trembling in my boots everytime I went to file an affidavit. An associate with 1/2 years of experience wud not, in many cases, be even able to distinguish right from wrong. And large law firms in India singularly lack good training for junior associates.[/quote]

i agree... especially because i think CLB was trying to teach AMSS a lesson but poor newbies into the profession had to face the grunt!!
layman Lawman 21 Aug 2012, 13:57
+16 -0
Ok... so what are the conclusions we can draw from this entire fiasco...
1. Associates at Amarchand have messed up "royally". Three years is more than enough time to realise that the GPA holder cannot make an affidavit posing as the principle.

2. The practice of "allotting seats reserved for foreigner's as long as Indians pay in dollars" that is being followed by law schools has scalped its first victim (rather victims)

3. There are two associates out there going through hell [...].( Kian....for the love of humanity...dont publish their details here)

4. AMSS has realized that resting on their laurels is more of an aspiration in a world of cut throat competition.

5. there are lawyers out there ( including moi) commenting here only because its AMSS that has suffered a severe blow.

6. There are lawyers including Mr. Shroff, who have come to realise that certain Internet Media( read Legallyindia ) have become a force to reckon with thereby requiring a press statement.

7. And finally ... the most important lesson of all ......"U aint nothing in a firm if u arent a partner"...everybody else are scapegoats or worse still bonded labourers.
Lighter note 21 Aug 2012, 17:17
+8 -0
When I saw your legally drawn headline as "ur liable. lol" - I thought it would be a cartoon on how a partner goofs up and puts a hapless Associate under the bus! :D Now isnt that a good idea for a cartoon! ;)
AMSS Loyalist 21 Aug 2012, 19:30
+1 -0
I think they should fire all of them.

Leave only the true blue AMSS loyalists and fire all these 'rumour mongers' and 'spoilt brats', and 'kids resting' on their laurels.

Who are they to tell lawyers that mistakes happen when you pull 16 hour days 365 days a month. We all know that real bonuses, promotions and careers are made by filling in 8 hours of time-sheets with invented billing and atleast 20 coffee breaks!!

And the rest of you commenters go fill your time-sheets with suitable 'wreaked AMSS reputation' entry's, and stop whiling your time here. AMSS is fully capable of wreaking its reputation!!!
Anon 22 Aug 2012, 05:03
+1 -0
One should not blame AMSS alone. Every lawyer, whether one year or ten years in the profession, is ought to be responsible towards client work. If not, he/she should seek guidance inside or outside the firm. However, the firm is to be blamed for being negligent in ensuring that it does not supervise client work. The client engaged the firm and not the associate with the hope that the experience people in the firm would be in control. It is true that very few law firm partners are actually proficient in legal work, spending more time on administration and business development. In fact, the whole concept of associate heavy firm is opposed to client interest. In fact, you should have as many associates that you can directly supervise, at least till they are 3-5 years into the profession. Secondly, lawyers/firm alike must restrain from taking up more than they can handle. This is achieved by engaging a large number of associates. This is not a healthy trend as far as clients are concerned. The Bar Council must come out with guidelines stipulating the partner to associate ratio in a firm and also regulating the working hours of lawyers. Generally, associates burn the midnight oil, while the partner is found socialising after regular work hours. If the BCI fails to act, it would be doing disservice to clients as well as large number of junior lawyers, whose interest it is bound to protect.
desi lawyer 22 Aug 2012, 11:07
+3 -0
while i entirely agree with your concerns, i do not agree with the idea that BCI should regulate the leverage. Please look at mature markets like UK, US and perhaps even Sing, HK and Australia. CLient care is best ensured not by regulating the leverage or working hours but by having strict and efficient remedies available to the client for negligence and deficiency in services.

Let BCI bring in strong and efficient cleint care remedies and the law firms will all set theri house in order. But i guess this is too much to ask for in India where everything is "Chalta Hai"....
Confused Zeus Says . . . 22 Aug 2012, 06:05
+32 -0
Proud to have worked under a senior who censured and reprimanded his juniors for their mistakes, but always in private. ALWAYS, without exception, he fiercely defended them in public and took all blame on himself. The respect you earn is equally, if not far more valuable than the millions you make. By firing two juniors, even assuming they were at fault, AMSS has tried to look good to the world. Sadly, it has achieved the opposite.
anon 22 Aug 2012, 07:09
+0 -0
Agree!
PR 22 Aug 2012, 11:35
+4 -0
Brilliant thoughts as always Zeus..Should change your name to Enlightened Zeus..
Legally Appalled 22 Aug 2012, 10:28
+7 -0
Bottom line: AMSS has lost more face than probably saved. Associates were targeted and terminated when possibly the partner should have taken the blame, if not anything at least shared some of it. Possibly the petition before the CLB was one of oppression and mismanagement and ironically the associates are facing it in reality. Client responsibility flows from the top and it is a sorry message that AMSS has sent out to clients that partners are not really in charge of the work assigned to them. AMSS fails on both counts of integrity and professionalism. AMSS has failed to realise that it is the people who comprise an organisation and more so in the services sector. I am sure the morale of the junior lawyers will be low.

The entire treatment has just been unfortunate.

Remember what goes around, comes around.
ThankGodIdontworkhere! 22 Aug 2012, 12:23
+10 -0
Chain of events:

1. A3 + PA designate file wrong affidavit (question - shouldn't a partner be examinng docs before final filing?);

2. associate lets partner know "my bad" (using Kian's information about a mysterious e-mail) ... nothing happens till 2 weeks later, when a CLB order is passed. Moral of the story - it is ok to f*ck up (just don't get caught!) ... if you're caught (and if the media gets a whiff of it!), there'll be hell to pay!

3. associates fired - to retain the high standards of the Firm (I like the capital "F" - well done SS) ... clearly - the partner doesn't contribute to the Firm's high standards then?

Sheesh ... to the people who work here (and there are some very very smart people who do) - seriously, can you think of NOTHING better to do with your lives?
Anon 22 Aug 2012, 13:01
+2 -0
SS: "6. In identifying the deponent and signatory, the associate level retainer represented himself in his capacity as an advocate identifying the deponent. The firm does not sign or identify deponents of affidavits before any notary public. Individual lawyers present themselves before the Oath Commissioner or Notary Public when they know the deponent and the advocate makes the deponent’s identification."

Firm doesnt go anywhere for notarisation, its the individuals who do the same on behalf of the Firm. Its very apparent how the blame is being shifted on the poor juniors.

And completely agreed with Zeus @ 53.
NS-Advocate 22 Aug 2012, 13:25
+0 -0
I still believe the higher position you hold the higher is your responsibility...we all know how these top tier firms work and how much pressure is there on the junior advocates....it is sad that a partner would not care to see or peruse a fresh petition being filed and associates on their on accord would take such steps....in this instant case the juniors advocates seem to have been made scapegoats and the partner let off lightly by the Firm and the Board. On the other hand you have prejudiced these junior Advocates career by making them wholly responsible for the grave mistake to save the partner's face and firm reputation.
fact finding 22 Aug 2012, 13:27
+10 -0
Mr Quest for truth aka Kian..why dont we have a clarification from you on the following FACTS:

1. The PA in question had regined almost a month back .

2. the 3PQE associate had barely finished his 7th month in litigation, having worked in a non-lit team for the remainder period. So the emphasis on 3 years experience is so incorrect, warranting a more suspect review higher up.

3. working hours of them in question are more than 16 hours on all 7 days without an exception. and ALL filings are ABSOLUTELY URGENT and given at 3:30pm.

lets see if you issue anything on this.
Truth 22 Aug 2012, 14:35
+5 -0
The affidavit was submitted to CLB registry by managing the clerk because client was not available that day and could not sign. Blanks were left in the affidavit so that it can be filed later on. Partner in-charge was aware of this. No management of clerk is done without agreement of partner in all the firms.

Associates has to take the fall because firms can not admit that they manage clerks.
India Watcher 22 Aug 2012, 15:15
+1 -0
Kian,

In the name of impartial journalism, please update all readers what real efforts you have made to publish the two associates's side of the story? Or are you leaving that scoop for Bar and Bench?
kianganz 22 Aug 2012, 20:47
+0 -0
Yes, we are working on publishing what we can but I can not go into any detailed discussion of sources for obvious reasons.

Best wishes,
Kian
India Watcher 22 Aug 2012, 21:18
+0 -0
Ok, fair enough. Looking forward to it. Hopefully it is timely!
@ Kian 23 Aug 2012, 05:01
+0 -0
At least upload the CLB order. I believe that would bring a lot more to light. Can't believe its taking LI so long to obtain a copy of the order!
kianganz 23 Aug 2012, 06:56
+1 -0
Very probably tomorrow we'll have an update. I'd also advise you to pick up a copy of Mint, but I would advise that every day in any case.

Apologies for the delay.
KK 23 Aug 2012, 07:10
+0 -0
IS there anything in todays Mint Kian? Or are you referring to tomorrow's edition? Cause I didnt spot anything on this story in today's Mint. Thanks.
kianganz 23 Aug 2012, 08:07
+0 -0
Ah yes, should have been clearer. Picking up a copy of Mint every day is never a bad idea, but the legal page is usually scheduled for every second Friday (i.e., tomorrow)

Thanks
Kian
kianganz 23 Aug 2012, 11:50
+0 -0
Hi, just an update - the legal page in Mint has been postponed to Monday again this week so we'll be running a follow-up to this story on Legally India tomorrow.

Apologies for any inconvenience - do read tomorrow's Mint anyway, it is likely to be full of good stuff as usual.

Best wishes,
Kian
@ Kian 23 Aug 2012, 09:51
+2 -0
I am not asking for an 'update'. This story is over - unless the version of the associates is published. The order has been passed, AMSS has done what they had to do, and the public have commented. What update can one expect?

My request to LI, as a fan, was for access to a copy of the order. Mint would possibly not publish the full order on Friday, and I follow Mint anyway.
... 23 Aug 2012, 14:59
+2 -0
for god's sake and for the sake of whatever little concern you may have for the two associates - let this story be. its over and done with, so let them get over this in peace and without further misery. you cannot do anything productive by adding on to this mess, so maybe refrain from the urge to have another popular story at some poor guys' cost.

The names of the individuals in question, ought not to be disclosed and you cannot ignore that moral responsibility.
Hobsonschoice 23 Aug 2012, 15:50
+4 -0
Mystified by the way the firm in this instance has chosen to handle this matter.... Apart from sending out a troubling message to current and prospective employees, the issue raises questions about how accountability and structure are being, and should be, managed.

Associates from prestigious law schools who make it as far into reputable firms aren't mugs! There might be good reasons as to why things turned out the way they did - among explanations that could be proffered are difficult deadlines, protracted work hours, defective processes, inaccessible superiors, competition, and a lack of institutionalized (and effective) knowledge management. While the reality of law firm life makes such explanations plausible (and probable, the extent of movement from the realm of plausibility to probability depending on how good/bad a firm is at dealing with these issues internally), what I find disconcerting is that the dismissal comes across as being a knee jerk reaction to a single event.

Lawyering is not for everybody, however, I would think that ability and competence should be judged over a period of time. Individuals and firms eventually find their equilibrium, and the departure of people who may not the right 'fit' can happen in several dignified ways. Liability is a risk, the issue is about what mechanisms are put in place to remedy failings. There is no shame in taking collective responsibility and remedying internal issues in a fair and transparent manner, and I would imagine that such a response would be consistent with good practice and a professional approach to employment.

IMO running with the report was an important exercise in itself insofar as it tabled some valid issues.

However, hectoring LI to provide the order or to provide an update does not appear to serve any useful purpose - all it would likely do is put the hapless associates in a more difficult position (by (a)revealing identities when this should not be required, assuming that it is the issues at hand that should be of interest; (b) by putting them in an unenviable position where they've got to decide between running the risk of an update being published without their point of view being aired, or actually providing their point of view. I wouldn't expect that they'd be in a position to speak up at this point)

Judging from the views expressed here, I would imagine that there will be others in the large and vibrant legal market in India who are willing and able to put things in perspective, offer the concerned lawyers an opportunity to continue doing what they've been trained for (while taking the right steps to ensure that quality is not compromised, also keeping in mind that this could possibly have happened to any law firm given a similar set of circumstances). I wish the associates well, and imagine that they will continue doing what they like doing, notwithstanding setbacks.
Sirji 23 Aug 2012, 17:17
+3 -0
Could you please elaborate?
The 2 23 Aug 2012, 18:11
+3 -0
The identify of both Associates is clearly revealed in the order. I dont understand this huge issue about publishing their names when both of them have already been identified in what is a public document. Yes, LI and Kian are being nice in not publishing their name on this site because it leads to unnecessary trolling, and thats the right decision.

But both their names are in the order and easily available to any litigating lawyer. Which is why I believe they should seriously considering suing AMSS for issuing a public statement disgracing them and putting this solely on them. Of course, this is also advise, no one can dictate what the 2 should do. That is their sole call alone.
AM Insider 24 Aug 2012, 11:39
+10 -0
Kian:

How come LI is avoiding mentioning the Head of the Litigation Department, Mrs Pallavi Shroff? Very convenient to fire the lowest common denominator. I hope in the interest of fair speech you will publish this. Full credit to you that unlike Bar n Bench you had the journalistic spirit not to succumb to the AMSS PR machinery.