Nalsar in 2009, NLS in 2011... the utterly bizarre, illogical Nationals judging does it again. Until ILSA takes the Jessup Nationals [into other] hands, more teams are going to suffer from the complete randomness here. What a shame.

So you mean that only NLS and NALSAR are the teams in the south who can win the south rounds. Doesn't it sound illogical. Can't any other team win it by doing hard work. ILS has won because they were capable enough to win it by getting Best Team, Best Memo, Best Speaker. You should congrats them instead of writing such comments.

Have you ever been to the Nationals and seen the judging there? Geography teachers judge the rounds. It's a complete shambles. Everyone knows it. It's about time someone spoke up.

Case in point. NLS got fourth-best memo at India South last year. They also got fourth-best at the worlds. Shows something.

We'll see what ILS does at DC, where the judging is actually good. Best Memo? Yeah, we'll see where their memo finishes as well.

Well , Yeah I have been in a National and currently student at NUJS and I have seen judging over there and they are not geography teacher who judges there but even for intras those people are called up who can judge.

But I think you have grow up, because Nationals are not the only colleges in India, there are other colleges also who can do equally well by working hard. Its good to see your embarrassment here.

Anyways , Heartiest Congratulations to ILS and NALSAR :-)

Oh god. I don't mean judging at the National Law Universities. I mean judging at the Jessup NATIONALS. Get the difference?

It is also a fact the geography teachers judge. Check it up.

No point throwing mud back and forth now. However, after the results of international rounds (both oral and written), we can introspect on quality of national administrators.
On a related note, I wonder who judges memorials at national rounds.
I heard a rumour that students of the organising colleges judge memorials. Is that true? If not, who judges them?

Even though the judge is the same for all the teams I think, even though it is a geography teacher, he would be same for all the colleges. And I don't see a reason why any law college cannot win National Rounds if they have worked hard ? Do you have any reason for that, then you can inform us.

i have been to national rounds and to DC. i can tell you that the judging standards at national rounds is pathetic. i have won a best memo in the nationals once and can tell you that had to do with the binding of the memo rather than its content. it's high time the top law schools came together and formed a body that can keep a check on quality of judging.

ILS is a strong mooting college (remember Vienna?). But accepting them as a good mooting college does not mean we be forced to maintain dignified silence over judges who do not know what Art. 2(4) of the Charter is.

@8

Thank you. The basic point I'm trying to make is that with bad judging, merit goes out of the window. I am not on how good this year's ILS team was, since admittedly I have not seen them argue. My limited point is that we NEED accountability at Nationals Judging, because these teams are going to represent India.

@7, in front of a geography teacher, the competition becomes at best, an elocution contest. Do you think a geography teacher would be able to appreciate a cutting edge legal argument or weigh legal research of one team against another?

@10, I agree with your point but my point is that why can't any college win a moot if it has worked hard. And yeah there are some flaws in the judging and that need to rectified but it should not take the due credit of the team who has done well.

I'm not going to speak in hypotheticals.

ILS are probably good. No one is denying their capability.

But, evidence. Like someone said.

NLS got the 4th best memo in the SOUTH india regional rounds last year, NALSAR was second. In the internationals, NLS got the second best memo in the world, and NALSAR did not figure in the top 20. Unless South India rounds have better memos than Oxford, Yale etc., I think there's a problem.

Year before that, NLS/NALSAR (i'm not sure) got the 8th best Memo in the national rounds, and 7th best in the world. Again.

Also, for anyone who wants to see judging quality. Please get a hold of the Nationals finals videos, and see. These are the finals, mind you. Not prelims. And see the juding there. Let's not talk in hypotheticals, but facts. Please.

And this has nothing to do with teams who won this year. They did so deservedly. Only problem is that merit is not a criteria in the nationals. Sadly. It's a coin toss.

Bottom line - Nalsar rulzzzz, all you people droolz. End of.

so, is the same team of NLS was there this time also ?

@12, sadly i think the national organisers are smart enough to avoid keeping videos of the national finals

I don't seem to understand why a 'geography teacher' has to go against NLS.........for what joy?u guys lost ILS won.......DEAL WITH IT.

It's not only NLS who is dealing with it... you are also dealing with it, my friend, because it's your country that is being represented.

well atleast we weren't crying wen NLS went through?

I just want to say that everyone at KIIT was shocked to see that NALSAR lost to ILS in the finals. Nalsar was much much better but we are very surprised how this could happen. Surana and Surana should be more transparent because everyone is saying all this has been done deliberately to keep allegations of pro-national law school bias away.

@ 19 Thank you. Everyone knows the way it works, but nobody ever speaks out - because if you do, rest assured whichever Law School you belong to isn't going to make it past Nationals in the foreseeable future.

Poor judges and judging is true for practically all national rounds - further, KIIT does not have any idea of how to host a moot anyway - were any former Jessup-ites or mooters worth their salt judging at the competition? Obviously good teams will have issues with what happenened- what better can you expect [...] anyway?

"Even though the judge is the same for all the teams I think, even though it is a geography teacher, he would be same for all the colleges"

What on earth? Since when is it okay for Geography teachers to judge any moot (except a geography moot if there such a thing). You're missing the point completely.

I'm surprised at people who are taking the opportunity to NLSiites to "deal with it". The problem is not that we didn't win - if ILS won, then they definitely have a good team. The point is that it is time we discussed bad judging at Jessup - and this is not meant as a criticism of any team (since most of us werent there and can't know). Let's not be petty. Let's be constructive.

ILS team deserved to win the best team and the allied prizes in jessup south india rounds. They were outstanding through out the tournament. Each member in the team had also history of winning national and international moots surpassing National Law schools convincingly. So it is not new to them. Every one in ILS knew that this team could easily made it to the international rounds. i am sure they will definitely prove themselves in world rounds as well..

@3..i personally write to you after ILS registering a triumph in the world rounds!!!

it really doesnt matter if nalsar lost in the finals. the bottom line is that both ils and nalsar will go for the international rounds. last year as well, nalsar lost to nls in the national finals but came THIRD in the international rounds, losing only to the eventual winners, ANU. So all that matters is the international performance. though i feel bad for NLS, i wish it represented india this year as well, its noteworthy that nls is the only team from india to have won jessups (1999)..

I'm from NUJS and I can say with no hesitation that the judging at Jessop is as bad as it gets or can get. I havnt been able to figure out whether memorials get marks for the quality of the paper (50 v 100 GSM - go figure) or whether a fancy accent gets you bonus speaking marks. Whatever it is - legal argument and logic have limited use.

[Some of] The judges are semi-literate and their questions would make a mofussil court paralegal seem clever. Some of the ridiculous stuff they throw back at you would automatically guarantee their suspension from the Bar (i.e. if they were lawyers).

And I know this is VERY controversial but many of these judges have a thing against what they feel are the bad boys from the "National universities" who they percieve to be too big for their chappals (probably a freudian thing) and so are extra-liberal with the poor, downtrodden sods from the non-NLS'.

In the end, India ends up sending a joke of a contingent to D.C. that gets pulverized by shady teams from countries so small, their entire population would get admission to Symbiosis

I hate these NLSIU bums but I hate poor judging even more, an I hate most undeserving teams getting a trip to D.C. and showing the world what a bunch of sadasses we indian lawyers are.

@ 26

Case in point - Campus Law Centre from last year. Sheer and utter disgrace. Symbi the year before that. I don't know who it will be this year. It's sickening.

For all the people who Talk about judging,

Either in real courts or in moots there will never be a good judge or a bad judge. its only a good advocate or a bad advocate.

If you cant convince the judge, thats not his problem, what ever may be the reason,its only lack of advocacy skills in you to analyse the judge.

lol. Geography teachers? Really? Well, even if they are what does that say?

Are geography teachers more prone to favour students from Non-NLS institutes? What kind of an effed up logic is that?

In fact, it is by making arguments such as these that the NLS team probably lost out. The allegation that they are geography teachers cannot augur well for the future, but on the other hand, it shows that ILS students were better able to explain a complex point of law to a layman - something which is the HALLMARK of a good lawyer.

Don't be a sore loser. And don't let the door hit you on your ass on your way out.

NLU Jodhpur lacks good mooter.....

I'm a loser alright - i lost a chance to argue before good judges, i lost the chance to be a fancy-dress-freebooter and win without opening my trap and i lost the chance to blabber some nonsense and get picked for the int'l rounds.

the door hit my ass on the way in so yea i'm a loser

If anyone has any doubts about Nationals judging, talk to Sowmya Rao. Nalsar mooter. Did Jessup in 2007, went to the last 16 at Washington, and got 3rd best memo (I think) in the world. Widely acknowledged to be one of the best mooters Nalsar has seen.

2009. Doing it for the second time. Loses in the quarterfinals of the NATIONALS. To Symbi. On a 2 - 1 split. Guess who the dissenting judge was? The only guy on the bench who had done Jessup before. Guess where Symbi made it at Washington? Yeah, that's right. Didn't even make the first break to 24.

This is the sad story of the Jessup Nationals. We can talk all we want, but until some changes are rung in, year after year, pathetic teams will represent India at DC, and people who've worked to death for three months will be sent back home. Disgusting, really.

I understand that you get this very often, but I'd like to know why NLS is mentioned in the title of this post, considering even GLC, Bombay was a semi-finalist. No such thing for the North rounds. Perhaps this is nitpicking, perhaps a subconscious subservience?

@33 - thanks for your comment. Several reasons perhaps. But mostly:

1. Nalsar and NLS came 1st and 2nd in last year's MPL, GLC came 9th.

2. ILS, the winner and the subject in the headline, beat both Nalsar and NLS, not GLC in the semis as far as I'm aware.

3. Perhaps more open to criticism, people do like reading about national law schools so subconsciously this could have caused NLS to also make it into the headline. There is no science to headline writing alas. If there was they would be very boring to read...

Hope this explains somewhat and makes sense.

Best regards,
Kian

Are judges at the Nationals good or not? More apprpriately, are they bad or not?

What team won this year, what team lost is irrelevant. Answer the above question.

If anyone can they're good or not bad, then we don't have a problem. If you say they are bad, we have a problem.

As of now, I can only see people in the latter category.

I'm sure ILS was good. I'm in no position to comment on that. I am in a position to comment on judging quality. Which is bad - hence, we have a problem.

Does anyone disagree with this?

Guys, why are you all fighting over this here? Deep down, everybody knows that the South was rigged to let ILS win, so that the NLU hegemony was broken. Too bad NLS and Nalsar came in the way, and too bad for those fools who spent three months working day and night for this moot. And everyone also knows that until the administration of Jessup nationals is put into more responsible hands, the whims and fancies of a certain organisation will be what determines who goes to DC.

I am going to state mere facts from what happened at Jessup 2009, nothing in this is hypothetical.

Jessup 2009, UILS, Punjab:

Judging:
-Judges are unaware of clarifications made to the compromis.
-For the most part they listen to the facts and give marks.
-They don't know the different between civil law and municipal law.
-Getting judges who know international law is akin to having a coin toss. It completely depends on your luck.

Accommodation and ambiance:
-Sub standard and with no accountability for any errors or queries with regard to the same. Surana washed their hands off completely from it.

Example of an event which occurred there, Extradition is an integral part of customary international law. Judge nods head, smiles and accepts it perfectly. On deliberation with regard to the same, judge is unaware what a custom under IL means. Helplessness prevails in the opposite team and the team which states the above qualifies.

ILSA Conference, 2009, Kolkata

The facts mentioned above are brought to the notice of an ILSA coordinater. She states that they face a similar problem in many countries since very few people are well versed in International Law. On further enquiry, it is uncovered that Surana is given funding from ILSA to cover Jessup rounds in India. Even she mentions that ILSA has little control over what happens in the Indian regional rounds and that Surana is in charge of it.

The bottom line is that Surana needs to either take cognizance of the numerous discrepancies that are at Jessup or ILSA should find a better regional organizer for it.

P.S. The author of this note has won an international moot earlier and is making an objective comparison of how a world class moot in which a lot of work is put in should be conducted. Before any stinging remarks or comments are hurled against this comment,please do note the same.

Also, a result at a moot can never be questioned. This is something most sportive mooters learn through experience. However, does that mean that an entire competition get compromised because of lack lustre organisation?

Correction in the previous post, 'difference between civil law and international law'.

I personally knew the NALSAR and NLS teams. Just brilliant. Judging, oh my God! from the stories I heard. God help Surana. I hope ILSA is reading this blog. Really necessary.

Apparently, in the semi-final, ILS passed material to the bench after NLS had finished its SUR-REBUTTAL! And what's more, the Bench accepted the material. Doesn't get much worse than that, does it?

Feeling bored in life? Want to watch a free comedy show for time-pass? Just step out and go watch the circus that is the Jessup Nationals.

Refusal to reveal original scoresheets is just another example of the long litany of malpractices and abuses that happen in that entirely non-transparent competition called the Jessup Nationals. What a way to organise the national rounds of the most prestigious moot court competition in the world.

Kian,
noticed an odd thing. You write NLSIU, NUJS et. al. Why Nalsar. NALSAR isn't a name. It too is an abbreviation. Kindly Correct the same.

I agree, it's strange but Nalsar itself calls itself Nalsar without full capitalisation - check their website, for example.

I guess it's a style thing and the fact that Nalsar rolls of the tongue easier than RGNUL, which looks more like an acronym?

Maybe some Nalsarites can shed some light on the mystery? I'll post up a query on the Facebook page, maybe someone can answer there.

Thanks,
Kian

Actually, I correct myself somewhat - Nalsar/NALSAR itself is not entirely consistent on its web site either... Sometimes it writes Nalsar sometimes NALSAR.

Maybe the non-caps were suggested by a brand consultant? (joking)

The English language geniuses at my former colleagues at The Lawyer UK just sent the answer over Twitter: "Because you can say it like a word. Acronyms that can be enunciated like a word have only he first letter capped."

Hope this explains it somewhat.

Thanks,
Kian

Its sad to notice when we talk about merit, we cant divorce our respective institutional prejudices even then.

It isn't about the self proclaimed "exclusive history of victors" as law school students like to put it.

I think this page just shows us that the "BEST Law Schools" (sic) Colleges (going by Mooting premier leagues and India today rank lists) havent been able to produce "legal thinkers".

I think that is the issue to deal with.

Merit isn't written based solely upon CLAT results. I think we shouldnt forget that we are talking about a college that has a tradition of producing the finest Judges and Lawyers and continues to do so. (Justice Y.V. Chandrachud, Justice Venkatramaiah, Prof. S.P. Sathe, Agatha Sangma)



Its time we gave up our inflated egos and talked about "Justice before prejudices"

I witnessed the south round finals and thought that the judges were well versed with the law and extremely active. So I was naturally surprised when the results were announced! The second speaker from ILS repeatedly lost his temper and shouted at the bench at least twice and managed to pick up best speaker in the finals. Neither speaker really argued any points of law, but stuck to interpretations of fact. I am not saying that the NALSAR speakers were brilliant, but nonetheless, they were impressive in the manner in which they handled a very active bench and managed to make points of law.
This wasn't a case of bad judging. It was clear for all to see who had won the rounds. THe results were predetermined.

I watched the semifinals...n it was shockin that ILS did not know of the equivalence in persuasive value of separate opinions, dissenting opinions and majority opinions of the ICJ!
Come on guyssss!! It's in the statute!!! Even I know that even though I haven't studied internat'l law as much as you have...

I don't wanna fight, i'm just saying: Be prepared for such questions dude. I've been told that India's got a HUGE rep in Jessup! It shouldn't be spoilt!

U kno whats worst about this? Surana is supposed to encourage ppl to study IL. With this awful judging and the way the rounds went, students will be discouraged.

Way 2 go Surana.

see, "nalsar" is perhaps the only national law school whose name is an acronym...moreover its easier to pronounce it nalsar rather than saying N-A-L-S-A-R..so nalsar is more like a word...just to add, its "nalsar" written on the acad block of the college. so even the college authorities call it nalsar. :D

from what i know the NALSAR act was amended at some point to remove the full form of the name. i think there were some trademark issues involved. now, the act itself just says Nalsar. So it isn't really an acronym.

Case of "SOUR GRAPES".... (wen the fox didn't get it, it walked away saying the grapes were sour) ;-)

@52, the same applies to you too...since u are a non "n" schooler, this means that u cudnt get thru a national law school, so indeed the grapes are sour for you! :P

I love how law students fight non nlu v nlu, nlu v nlu, tier 1 nlu v tier x nlu, reminds me of my nls my nlu is better than thou days - ex student

@#53 - Had NLS or NALSAR won jessup 2011 there would have been posts congratulating them.. no one wud hav criticized the quality of judges nor about the speakers.

PLEASE show some Sportsman spirit and some maturity..this is the least expected fm all of u..

the video of the finals will be made available to the teams within the next week. if they choose to upload it, people can make their own decisions.

Can we also have a video of the semis?

Dont Bring a "N" School and Non "N" School distinction in an online forum, bringing such "DISTINCTIONS AND DIFFERENCE" is nothing but the act of cowardice , stupidity and also sign of immaturity.. If you are law aspirants, start polishing your mannerisms over a online forum it would really help you in your future and also before commenting something look into your own work and experiences, dont comment so blindly because at the end of the day, you are shaming yourselves.. So keep that in mind and stop the whole "Online Disrespect" for other colleges.. Remember one thing.. Famous Colleges doesn't always mean they have to win.. Gifted speaker can come from various non Famous college too... MIND IT.

@ 39, You personally knew NALSAR and NLS teams but you dont know the ILS team. Every Team memeber in the ILS team has a record of not loosing a moot court competition in which they represented.

@ 59, that record will be gone extremely soon, with good judging at Washington.

*Member

@ 60, well it may in all probability.

Can anyone guarantee a N- School victory for sure in Washington??

Why conduct Indian Rounds? lets just send Just the best of N-schools, as you brand them.

In fact, lets directly declare NLS as the word champion with out any competition at all.

Why are people blaming KIIT for bad judging? Moreover the semi-finals in which NLS lost was judged by MR bedi who worked in ICJ for 26 years.
@ 41, Score sheets are out on the notice boards of our college. They were personally given to teams by organisers.
If NLS people are too ashamed to show them, thats not our problem.

@ 63: the actual scoresheets are never released. what IS made available is a consolidated scoresheet. that's the norm in all surana moots. so you never know how the judges actually marked, only surana's tabulations of it. and they never involve the college organisers in the tabulations. it's not really very difficult to xerox and release the original scoresheets from the judges. especially in the later rounds. why wasnt that done?

is this the ILS's same team who lost in finals of DM Harish 2010????

Yes the same team lost in the finals.

@64: Generally in every moot its only the consolidated score sheet which is released.
Its not possible to Rig jessup's because the judges are present there itself and they personally know which team they qualified.
Both the judges in the semifinals gave ILS more marks than NLS and one of them, as I already mentioned, worked in ICJ for 26 years. Dont you think he is enough qualified to judge?
I saw the semifinals. It was a tough fight but ILS performed better than NLS.

Ya.

@ rest-

You should know that in the team one speaker had an experience of being ULC runner-up, DM Harish runner-up and now Jessup winner; while the other is the last year winner of ULC and now Jessup.

I might understand people being irritated about Bad Judging, but to undermine a Team's victory and to call it rigging- SHAME ON YOU PEOPLE.

@ 68 Completely agree with you!

And People! What a fight?!!
N-school people pls come to terms with the fact that being from an N-school is not a pre qualification to qualify for Jessup or any other Int'l moot!Others too can do it too...! Every college has great mooters!

Congratulations to the Winners (includes all the qualifiers!) of National Rounds! All the very best for DC!!!

The chain reaction of discussions is as a result of NLS failing to qualify and NALSAR losing the Finals.. Its high time, all of you realise that ILS has a strong mooting standards.. the qualifying rounds in ILS are highly competitive.. I had the opportunity to follow ILS qualifying rounds as I had participated too (I studied 1st year at ILS and then, moved to N-School after qualifying CLAT..) The college is known to produce top quality mooters and remember, they had Jessup, BCIT and Vienna into their display-ware already, its only now that the N-Schools have started to win these moots.. the qualifying moots always saw a strength of 400-500 students participate.. and only 12 students qualify for the Finals.. So, ILS inevitably produces the best Mooters, who work with a lot of dedication and focus, and ofcourse, the students are known to be very good at their presentation of arguments and tackling the bench of Judges.. ILS is known to produce top quality mooters, and a good examples are Mr.Pratik Awasthi who won BCIT and Mr. N. Ashwani Kumar who won Jessup, ULC and Raj Anand, and later Vienna winner Ms.Shraddha Deshmukh, who performed outstandingly well at Vienna.. I am personally winess to when Ashwani Kumar and Pratik Awasthi were arguing, the Moot Hall used to be full to its capacity.. The professors and lecturers always take the names of Pratik and Ashwani Kumar as benchmarks, and as good mooters and role-models to emulate. Infact, Mr. Ashwani Kumar, regularly judges the Jessup and Stetson Rounds, and the feed-back is just brilliant, he is supposed to be a brilliant judge...... Pratik and Ashwani Kumar won BCIT and Jessup against all odds.. ILS does not hold a good infrastructural set-up for the Mooting students to prepare unlike the other N-Law Schools.... inspite of all the hurdles, ILS performs astoundingly well braving all odds and stumbling factors as they have to research on a strict budget unlike N-Law Schools which shower the students with funds for moots like Jessup and Stetson...... Many a times, I regret moving over from ILS.. as the student atmosphere is very healthy and supportive.. Hearty Congratulations to ILS Team for winning Jessup and am sure you would do very well.... Keep flying the ILS Flag high.....

Looks like N-Schools forgot one important subject in their so called excellent curricula, Character and integrity. If you win it is your hard-work and you call them the best mooters of your college If you loose you blame that the moot is rigged and the judging is bad. GROW UP PEOPLE.
If the judging quality of National rounds is so bad, how were you qualifying all these years?

Hand over the entire proceedings of the moot (including the videos) right from the semifinals to ILSA and let them decide the winners.

DUDE GROW UP.
Why dint you ask for the same procedure last time???
So you want ILSA to decide if you loose and surana to decide if you win??

@ 73

Because you can rest assured that if ILSA, or anybody semi-competent judges the rounds, the results will pan out rather differently.

Why doesn't Nagarbhavi just declare itself the mooting capital of India?
Get a life, 'law schoolites'. Seriously.

The question is why dint you ask for the same procedure last time??

Classic case of how N-Schools Display their "EGO" if they loose.
Though funny, it is also very disturbing because it shows what kind of students N-Schools are producing. To put it in the words of The commission, appointed by the Chief Justice of India, "NLS has moved away from the phase of 'exploration and accomplishment' to a 'phase of diminution and dissatisfaction'.
It's high time N-Schools Stop thinking about how much law they are teaching and start contemplating as to what kind of people it is contributing to the profession

If you National Law Schools are winning competition, then it is their job, they can do it, no problem but when any other law college shows its capability by winning moot, lots of dissatisfaction, embarrassment arises. Just because you are in NLU doesn't make you better than all students who are studying in other institution, they can do equally well. Why were you not crying for the bad judging for so long ? Why are you crying and blaming judges when NLS lost ? Is these colleges only colleges in India ?

"If you National Law Schools are winning competition", "Just because you are in NLU doesn't make you better than all students who are studying in other institution", "Is these colleges only colleges in India"?

With this brand of English, you claim you're as good as me. Hahahaha.

I m from NUJS and support @78 , point is that why this point of bad judging was not raised for so long. It is quite absurd to undermine any team which has won not because of judging but because of capability.

Now go and blame GLC for conducting bad judging.

http://www.legallyindia.com/201102071772/Law-school-competitions/ulc-bangalore-wins-first-ever-judging-competition-at-glc-v-symbi-nlu-j-nlsiu

Best Of Luck! I think you people have got one more place to show your embarrassment :P

For the record, "Nalsar" is perfectly fine. The Act under which the University was amended in 2005 and the University renamed from "National Academy of Legal Studies and Research" to "Nalsar University of Law". - Small pedantic pleasures.

Carry on, all, with another meaningless free-for-all.

learn to tag people towards who the comment is to be directed towards