Opinion: Towards a Common Law Accessibility Test (and why CLAT’s test pattern reforms are a terrible idea)

Is the Common Law Admissions Test going to become a test of access?
Is the Common Law Admissions Test going to become a test of access?

The recent press release by the CLAT Consortium (or the consortium of National Law Universities) contains possibly the most significant change to the CLAT exam pattern since its inception.

The press release suggests that there will be no Legal Aptitude section in CLAT 2020, and there will be a reduction in the number of questions.

In order to, “get better students to National Law Universities who have competence in reading texts and demonstrate skills in inferential reasoning”, the paper will now contain comprehension based questions from Quantitative Techniques, English, Current Affairs, Deductive Reasoning and Logical Reasoning.

The distribution of questions from each question remains unclear. On a bare perusal of the above five categories, it seems that the Legal Aptitude section has been replaced with the Deductive Reasoning section.

However, questions from deductive reasoning earlier formed part of the Logical Reasoning section, so whether it will continue to be a part of the Logical Reasoning Section or will be a new section altogether is also not clear. Regardless, the noteworthy point is the emphasis on comprehension based questions from all these sections.

A prejudicial tweak

I argue that this tweak in the syllabus and the emphasis on comprehension based questions is prejudicial to a particular set of students: students with schooling from vernacular medium and students from Tier 2 and 3 cities and non-cities.

Before I elaborate on my argument, it is appropriate to consider few facts regarding CLAT and the student profile at NLUs - NLUs have historically been dominated by students from major cities. The number of CLAT aspirants from smaller cities and towns have gradually increased- thanks to the increasing awareness about the exam in such places.

However, one does not see a proportionate increase in the number of students form smaller cities occupying seats in NLUs.

What is even more incontrovertible is the fewer students are coming to NLUs who have had their schooling in vernacular medium. At NLS, in a population of 400 students in the undergraduate program, the number of students from vernacular medium does not even touch double digits. Unarguably, the gates of any institution is governed by its entrance examination- its syllabus, pattern and difficulty level determines the incoming students.

So if the blame for the current student profile at NLUs lies anywhere, it lies with CLAT.

Troubled history

We have gotten our test fundamentally wrong since the beginning and what is even more troublesome is that the consortium instead of ideating on a way to remove the impact that access to an elite education has on the selection process, has in fact strengthened the advantage that students from big cities have.

CLAT’s fundamental flaw is that while it seeks to test the language skills of a candidate, it is conducted in only one language- English. Thus CLAT essentially ends up testing the “English Language skills” of the candidates.

A lot of factors are a determinant in English language skill, and the schooling of the candidate plays a major role in it.

Even if we ignore the case of students with schooling vernacular medium, students with English as their medium of schooling also have different exposure to the language depending on the quality of the school they go to and the kind of socio-economic culture they come from.

Thus, students from metro cities have better exposure to English language and consequently better English Language skills unlike their counterparts from other areas.

Comprehension misunderstand the problem

A comprehension based question involves two steps to reach the correct answer. The first is understanding what the question demands and the second being the application of logic to solve the question.

The first part (or the primary part) – understanding the question – could include understanding the factual scenario, understanding the requirement of the question etc. The candidates’ English proficiency play a very important role in crossing this primary hurdle.

It is only after the candidate has overcome the primary hurdle, he reaches a a situation where he could actually apply logic to solve the question.

Comprehension focussed questions are by their nature framed in a complex language to assess the students, inter alia, on their language skills. The candidates’ unfamiliarity (or a relatively lower exposure) with the language throws them off at the first level itself.

Even if they reach the second level, they are likely to take more time in crossing the primary hurdle. Notwithstanding the proposed reduction in the number of questions, CLAT still remains a time-bound test. The relative disadvantage of such ‘slowing down’ cannot be discounted despite the increased time for each question that everyone now has.

So English language skills assume the primary role in the proposed pattern where comprehension based question on different aspects will be asked throughout the paper.

Moving closer to English-speaking countries with this CLAT

In introducing more comprehension based questions, although we have moved closer to the model that the US and other English speaking countries follow (for instance, their law entrance tests like LSAT contain mostly comprehension based questions), we have ignored the differential access to English language education that is so prevalent in our country.

While using a globally accepted pattern is not a problem, a fact that we should not miss is that inequitable exposure to the language of the test is not a problem in other countries which use LSAT or similar exams. But in India, this is certainly a problem.

Having argued how English language skills will potentially play a spoilsport in upcoming CLATs, it is important to clarify that it is not my case that the earlier system did not suffer from this disadvantage.

However, what I have sought to show is that the problem of English becomes much more acute in an exam which completely focuses on comprehension based questions. While the exam setter’s intention behind several questions may be to test inferential reasoning (and inferential reasoning alone), candidates will invariably end up being tested on their English language skills.

It may be contended that candidates would have faced the same problems with the erstwhile Legal Aptitude Section, especially in the Legal Reasoning questions.

However, what this argument overlooks are firstly, the repetitiveness of the Legal Aptitude questions in CLAT and secondly, the limited scope of Legal Aptitude Section where terms can be (and are often) learnt in the course of preparation thus giving the candidates required exposure to the language component of the section and consequently creating a level playing field.

However, this is not to say that the Legal Aptitude section was a fine test of a candidate’s merit but rather to argue that the playing field is relatively uneven in the new pattern.

What is the aim?

Prof. Faizan Mustafa, the outgoing President of the consortium, has claimed that “the idea is to get better students to National Law Universities who have competence in reading texts and demonstrate skills in inferential reasoning”.

What this proclamation misses is that CLAT was never a test of a candidate’s skill, or at the very least was not supposed to be a test of skill. Nor was it a knowledge test (unlike the JEE and NEET).

CLAT is an aptitude test and thus what should matter is the candidate’s aptitude to learn the skills required to be a lawyer and not the existing skillset and knowledge -predominantly that of English language - of the candidate.

Therefore, in a diverse country like India, for admission to **National Law Universities, English language skills should not form a significant evaluative criterion, and much less the primary criterion.

There are ways in which tests can be made culturally neutral.

While this seem like a destination any entrance examination in India will take years to reach, the single minded focus on comprehension based question should be avoided.

Instead, attempts should be made to test the aptitude of the candidate in as little convoluted language as possible, barring the specific English Language section.

If comprehension based question indeed end up dominating CLAT, it will no longer be the Common Law Aptitude Test but will become the Common Law Accessibility (to quality English-language education) Test.

I sincerely pray that this doesn’t happen.

Divya Kumar Garg is a fourth year student at NLSIU Bangalore. A former Student Public Interest Fellow at P-PIL (IDIA), he has worked with Prof Shamnad Basheer on his CLAT petition for two years. He has also helped CLAT aspirants in filing PILs against the conduct of CLAT 2018.

Picture by Irina Bruce.

Comments

Guest1 23 Nov 2019, 12:28
+2 -7
CLAT should happen in multiple languages.
Guest 23 Nov 2019, 12:43
+31 -3
At the end of the day when these children get into law school, they will have to read english texts, give presentations in English. Will they be able to cope up with the pressure?

Will the law school let everyone do their degree in vernaculars?
Guest1 23 Nov 2019, 20:23
+4 -5
If they already need to know how to do all this what is school for? Isn’t the point of law school that they teach students this stuff? If English is so goddamn necessary why cant schools invest some time in teaching students who might be behind through remedial programmes ? Why make it a barrier to entry?
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 05:44
+11 -4
It's not possible within the current structure and curriculum to impart English training in law school within effective time period for these students. Remedial classes don't work because students refuse to attend those fearing the stigma. And no remedial class can turn you from having minimal English knowledge to writing and understanding the language adequately enough by the time first semester ends. Hence you end up failing or barely passing. The slide begins from there. How do you expect someone to get a language in 4 months while balancing a rigorous law school curriculum? Then there would have to be different English classes for different levels all throughout five years. Then you'd need teachers who can understand different vernacular languages and effectively communicate in them during those English classes, because without the teacher and students sharing a common language, English classes seldom work. Frankly, that's the job of schools, not universities.
Guest1 24 Nov 2019, 17:57
+2 -3
So change the structure and curriculum? What good is it if it is keeping otherwise good lawyers out for lack of English skills?
If there is stigma in attending English classes - work on destigmatising it. Why should anyone have to learn the whole language in one semester? Why can’t you make support available through out the five years?

This is not an impossible problem. Universities across the world deal with international students who mostly have tenuous grasp of English. They provide support to those students because they recognise that one can be a very good lawyer while not knowing English. This is not hard if one is willing.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 19:29
+3 -2
Give us your name and contact details. We'll invite you to come run this program which you think is easy on a trial basis with one batch for 5 years.
- A NALSAR student
Guest1 24 Nov 2019, 23:07
+1 -0
Well - at the risk of outing myself. I have already done my fair share of educating students at NALSAR.

This really isn’t an impossible task, looking at how international universities have handled the issue would help in solving it. Universities across the world have support programmes to help those who might not know English that well. Entire offices are staffed with volunteer and paid tutors who actually sit with students and review any and every piece of writing that they need - from emails to research papers. And students who go to these programmes are not made to feel less than- it is reiterated that they are experts in subject matter but only starting to learn English. Harvard, Yale, Stanford, oxford and Cambridge all of them do this for their international students. Even some Indian universities have started creating English writing support programmes for students. And NLUs have a fraction of the number of students needing help that these universities do. There are many examples to emulate. Assuming of course that one does want to solve the issue.
Guest 25 Nov 2019, 04:43
+2 -0
Doesn't one have to clear IELTS or TOEFL or similar exams to get entry into the foreign universities that you named? If so, then how can those students be that bad in English as you seem to be suggesting?
Guest1 25 Nov 2019, 14:06
+1 -1
Technically one does. But when you get there you find that a lot of international students don’t speak any English, A lot of them get waivers because they already have good scores in gre/ good gpas in their home university.

I have been in classes where students have put every email into google translate to adequately understand what each word meant. These students still topped the batch. They came from China , Russia , Latin America - you name it. And there wasn’t much stigma simply because the tutors were trained to be empathetic and respectful.

They went to writing and English support every day and they figured it out. There was writing support to start with.
Guest 25 Nov 2019, 15:06
+1 -1
Then these students had to have been the best that their country has to offer, so they managed. Let's apply the same standard to our students too then and see how they fare. The ones deserving would 'manage' during these five years somehow. Only, that's not happening.
Guest1 26 Nov 2019, 14:11
+0 -0
No they didn’t manage because of intrinsic worth - they managed because they worked hard and there was institutional support available every step of the way . To not make this support available - and to still expect students to tough it out- that’s not just apathetic and bad teaching and a failure of meritocracy - that’s essentially cruel.
Students who would get into NLUs on a fair test would be the best this country has to offer.
Guest 23 Nov 2019, 13:14
+10 -10
Why stop there? Rename NLUs to Rashtriya Nyay Vidyalaya, ban the teaching of British and American cases, teach only from books in simple language like RK Bangia, and have the Jessup India rounds in Hindi.
Guest1 23 Nov 2019, 20:25
+3 -0
The point of this post isn’t to entrench chauvinism or encourage ignorance- it’s simply to ask for equitable access to legal education.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 05:38
+5 -1
And how would you avail of the advantage of the education if you can't understand what's being taught in class? A lot of people talking about access believe somehow getting these kids into law school is the end goal. It isn't. It drives them to depression and self-doubt via marginalisation. Getting somebody to fight without arming him properly while arguing that he's a right to defend his country may sound very patriotic, but is certainly a criminal folly nonetheless.
Guest1 24 Nov 2019, 17:59
+0 -0
Yes I agree - but the solution isn’t to exclude these kids from law school is it? The solution can only be to prove access to legal education and at the same time work on providing English language support. This is not a difficult problem if one rejects post hoc rationalisations.
Insecurity 25 Nov 2019, 02:42
+1 -0
There are other law schools that can take up students who struggle with English. NLUs aren't cheap or affordable by any measure, so it's not like they are losing out on subsidised education. I have seen students having to drop out because they simply cannot keep up with a high pressure trimester system and also juggle learning a language at the same time. It's a brutal world out there and you can't bend yourself backwards trying to accommodate everyone.
Guest1 25 Nov 2019, 14:12
+3 -0
It might be a “ brutal” world out there- but law school exists to teach you to deal with that world.

No doubt some people have felt alienated and quit so far- I would argue that’s because there were no support structures to help them.

As for this “rigorous” trimester system. Most nls students do not study all the time. I would venture they do not study even half the time. They study in the run up to exams and they study to write papers- but it isn’t nearly as time consuming as one assumes. I know of nls students who have held jobs/ internships/ drug habits on the side-if one can make time for all of that - one can make time to learn a bit of English.

As for the “go away we’re not for you” argument. Well - NLUs should be for everyone good enough to learn the law. Otherwise what is passing off for merit is just elitism.

Sure it’s not particularly cheap education - but one could afford it with scholarships - and it’s the kind of education that actually helps open doors. If one in good faith wants to help underprivileged communities- there is simply no good reason to not do this.
Guest 25 Nov 2019, 15:11
+0 -0
Again, do what exactly? Providing separate English training won't help unless the students we are talking about can imbibe it real time and start applying it from the very first semester. That's some utopian assumption! Law schools are for everyone trying to study law, true. But it's because of our diversity that a common language must be used! Otherwise how is an institution with its given resources actually going to function in reality? Students are not being able to cope and simply saying that teachers should be more empathetic (which they definitely should be) isn't going to cut it. Let's say I'm a teacher from North India and I face a student unable to follow my classes in English, can't write the assignments in English or can't answer the questions in exam. I can't even take extra classes for him and try to explain things in his vernacular. What exactly can I do? Maybe try to offer him some consolation. Doesn't help him to pass his papers.
Guest1 26 Nov 2019, 14:09
+1 -0
No one is denying that a common language should be used- just that such a common language shouldn’t be a barrier to access. English is a skill - like any other it can be taught - other foreign universities do this all the time with international students. With a writing centre that is dedicated to helping students and supporting them in catching up with all the texts and projects they have to face - it would be a challenge for these students - but not impossible .
It starts with empathy - it doesn’t have to end there.
Guest 25 Nov 2019, 04:56
+0 -0
No matter how much support you provide, you can't expect these students to compete along with students who've been studying the language for a decade already. Forget competing, it's not fair to expect them to even secure pass marks until they have been given at least a year and a half of solid English training. What's going to happen in the meanwhile to their law school curriculum, put on hold? Or are they automatically expected to clear a 5 year course in 7-8 years? Another important point is a lot of these students are on government scholarships for reserved categories, which are suspended if you fail a year. Law is taught in this country in English language primarily. How many good law books have you come across that have been written or translated into vernacular? The solution is to reform the schooling system, not to ensure that lawyers go through their training period without knowing English. By your logic, even vernacular mode of legal education won't do. What about the tribals who have their own different dialects that may turn out to be as different from the state common vernacular as the latter is from English? Why should they be deprived of learning law in their own language either? Why shouldn't they be allowed to argue in courts in their own dialect? It's not as if they lack in intelligence either compared to their 'civilised' brethren.
Guest1 25 Nov 2019, 14:16
+1 -0
I’m not arguing for everyone to study in vernacular - there’s too much straw manning here. With enough support one can learn the language and pass all their exams.
It doesn’t need to be a year and a half of only English training - having gone to law school - and having helped my batch mates and juniors with this - it needs to be a few hours after class everyday.
That is not an impossible ask.
I have seen this happen to international students who don’t speak a word of English in world universities. This isn’t that hard.

And yes - adivasi students should have access to legal education also.
Guest 25 Nov 2019, 15:16
+0 -0
Again, few hours after class everyday for students from all five years and varying grasp of the subject, by multiple teachers (plural because as I said, you need effective vernacular communication when you start learning a foreign language) sounds very good in theory, but very difficult to implement in reality. Not impossible, but then nothing is impossible if you throw enough resources at it. Personally, the level of dedication that it might take is something that I haven't seen in students (or teachers) of any NLU lately. And again, I do not agree that it can be learnt as quickly as you seem to be suggesting.
Guest1 26 Nov 2019, 14:05
+0 -0
Why would the students not be able to imbibe it and practice it? The work of learning a language is to practice it and make mistakes and learn.
The language teachers don’t need to know every language under the sun - most esl teachers don’t- they still teach fine. further more even if they do at a university level- it would be fairly easy to get a diverse set of volunteers and paid students who could speak all these languages. That’s what universities abroad do. It works fairly well. It would actually work better in NLUs cause the number of students needing such help would be much smaller than say at Harvard or oxford or wherever.
NLU student bodies are maybe 500-800 students , of which maybe 5-10 percent of current students would need such support. Even if that number doubles - it would still be manageable resources wise.

And when you consider all the unnecessary crap the universities waste money on - it would be a better investment.
Guest 23 Nov 2019, 13:01
+11 -1
While some of the points mentioned by the author are certainly accurate, he has not supplied any alternative suggestion or reform, merely hinted at there being plenty of those. One also needs to consider that the medium of instruction across all NLUs is English and only English and students are expected to write 4-5 essays of varying length in their very first semester. The law schools don't provide any effective remedial classes that would enable those who are weak in English to bridge that gap in any reasonable time (it has been seen that students who actually need those never participate in those effectively anyway fearing stigma etc.). Of course, some students still manage to do it by themselves through sheer perseverance and dedication (there may be other privilege factors involved too), but they are definitely the exception. Therefore, unless the students have got at least a basic grasp of English, getting them into the NLUs is actually serving very little purpose other than making them undergo self-doubt, ridicule, ostracism and depression. Nobody can claim that CLAT requires any high level of English skills (although some of the grammatical or static questions have often been quite random, the comprehension section has so far been mostly acceptable). Now my question is, at which stage is the student going to learn the language then? NLUs can't be the place, because the curriculum isn't structured in that fashion. One may argue that NLUs may consider including vernacular wings, but that's practically untenable given the sheer linguistic variety of the country. The author refers to repetitive nature of the legal reasoning section (which over the last 5-6 years has become mostly a joke, since it requires or presupposes actual legal knowledge or training) and says that can be attempted through 'practice'. Basically he's saying one can rote learn the stuff. In which vernacular school would the student get that training? That's again available only at coaching centres, mostly in metro cities. One should compare the legal reasoning section as it used to be in pre-CLAT days in 2004-05, in the exams hosted by Law School, NUJS, NALSAR etc. It used to be quite different from how it is today, but again, it would require reasoning and how can you reason without comprehending the facts? For which you'd need basic language ability, like it or not. People keep referring to NLUs as being national institutes, which seems to mean they have to cater to all language diversity, but never says how it can be done in reality. A lot of IDIA students face this problem in NLUs and to my knowledge, there has been no effective solution to this yet. Based on that, I'd rather have an examination that focuses less on rote learning (and prior legal knowledge) and more on comprehension. The focus should be on the schools to teach basic English better, not on the colleges and universities to cater to the possibility that a student might never end up knowing the basics of the language but still has to be effectively taught through 5 years using English as medium of instruction.
Guest 23 Nov 2019, 13:02
+2 -5
Rubbish arguments. On the contrary, the reduced emphasis on English has disadvantaged students from non-Hindi regions. They are more comfortable in English than Hindi as their second language, and hold an advantage over Hindi belt states. Let the Hindi belt crowd study law in Hindi in that case. Also, more emphasis on language is helpful to girls.
Guest 23 Nov 2019, 15:18
+9 -0
Are you trying to troll? Because otherwise your arguments aren't making any sense. Where is Hindi coming into the picture?
Guest1 23 Nov 2019, 20:26
+1 -0
Not all students from outside the Hindi belt are as comfortable with English.
Guest 23 Nov 2019, 13:03
+4 -4
What nonsense is this? Proficiency in English is essential to be a good lawyer.
Guest1 23 Nov 2019, 20:28
+0 -0
Is it? What kind of lawyer? One can be a really good lawyer in most courts of this country without speaking English.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 04:24
+4 -0
Maybe, but not in courts with a 'national' character (HC and SC), can they? In that case, the onus is on state governments to come up with good quality law schools teaching in vernacular.
Guest1 24 Nov 2019, 18:01
+0 -0
Do national law schools not exist for the districts of India? Are lower courts not part of the legal system in India? Is it only HCs and SCs?

In fact I’ll go further, most senior lawyers even at the HC level have maybe a tenuous grasp of English. Lawyering=\english.
NationalLU 25 Nov 2019, 04:36
+0 -0
I think people are forgetting that NLUs have students from across the country, my batch had people from 19 states, and that was a while ago. I assume NLUs are just as diverse now. How would teaching people in vernacular work, considering only about half the batch had some sort of overlap on the language? Default to Hindi? Many people might not know Hindi. Same with Kannada or Telugu or any other language.

NLUs are also not large enough to have different classes for different languages. We might call them universities, but they don't have the funding or size required to provide such programs.
Guest1 25 Nov 2019, 14:19
+0 -0
No one is saying that you must teach in vernacular. Just that you must accommodate the diversity you seem so proud of. And that the importance of an English education is exaggerated .

And atleast for classroom interactions - if there is that much diversity in a room there is enough to allow for some quick rough translation. This has worked in other universities. It isn’t new - if one is willing I think.
Guest 25 Nov 2019, 15:04
+0 -0
How does an institution accommodate this diversity exactly? Allow students to speak in class in their vernacular language during classroom discussions? How is the teacher expected to know all the languages? How are the other students expected to know that either? This still reads as very vague. Who's going to do the quick rough translation? The teacher, other students?
Guest1 26 Nov 2019, 04:58
+0 -0
Are you seriously even thinking through these problems ? Is this what trolling is? One would think no linguistically diverse classroom in the world exists going by these questions.
That’s just not true. Universities across the world deal with language diversity- if we want answers we can actually look for them. I have explained in detail how this works in international universities - you should just read that comment instead of asking the same questions over and over again.
Guest 23 Nov 2019, 13:10
+2 -8
Good lord, are we going to make NLUs into JNU now? Look at what happened to JNU because they tried to take in more vernacular student: today 90% students are Biharis, and their "star" student Kanhaiya cannot speak in English despite supposedly writing a PhD in English.
Guest1 23 Nov 2019, 20:29
+2 -1
I would argue that NLUs could learn a lot from JNU, and that knowing English isn’t the sole measure of intelligence. To think otherwise might just be internalised colonial hatred.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 04:26
+2 -0
Knowing English is not the sole measure of intelligence, that's quite true. But if you are studying at an institution where the medium of instruction is English, how do you express your intelligent thoughts properly without learning the language? Not knowing English shouldn't be paraded as a badge of honour either, like a lot of people have been doing recently.
Guest1 24 Nov 2019, 18:03
+1 -0
Knowing English should also not be a reason for false superiority. If the medium of instruction is English and it excludes otherwise good lawyers/ maybe we re-examine what we want NLUs to be - do we want them to be centres of merit and excellence in lawyering? Or just English?

Assuming the structure can not be changed leads one to make paternalistic choices. When structures are failing to produce best results it’s wise to try and change the structure .
Guest 25 Nov 2019, 06:47
+1 -0
People keep asking for the structure to be changed without actually providing viable alternatives. Changed to what? Provide vernacular medium training in the hundreds of languages and dialects that are prevalent in the country? Provide rigorous English training for at least the first couple of years to the students who need them, while putting their legal training (that takes place in English) on hold? Write or translate law books in the hundreds of Indian languages? Suggest something that's practical. Respecting linguistic diversity doesn't mean others have an obligation to ensure that you go through life without learning a common language. In institutions of a national structure that attract students from all over the country, there has to be one common language. English happens to be the most convenient. The rest is up to the state governments to come up with state law schools that would teach in vernacular if that's what the people in that state want. Mind you, those graduates still won't be able to cope when it comes to jobs outside that state or the high courts and Supreme Court etc. Anybody can learn a language at any point of time in their lives, but they need to learn it first before they start getting tested in that language. Which means this has to be done at school level if these students want to come to NLUs.
Guest1 25 Nov 2019, 14:26
+1 -0
Well- I was responding to the comment above me but sure. I agree on the utility of a common language - but we can start to not attach notions of merit to that common language.
And you don’t need years of rigorous training on English alone. What you need is really good support systems. International universities have writing centres exactly for this. They have people from all nationalities- some of whom can’t speak a word of English- and they avail of writing centre tutors to go over every email and every research paper to make sure the students ideas get communicated. They are provided with resources to learn English, there are groups of students who practice it together everyday. It’s just another skill. And they learn it as they pursue a full course of studies, sometimes at the graduate level. Having gone to an NLU- I can assure you there is time enough in the day.

To just shoo these students away- even if they might be gifted in other ways - it’s just elitism and not merit. There are many reasons for student to want to attend NLUs and they should be allowed to.

And law school exams shouldn’t be testing your English - they should be testing your knowledge of the law.
Guest 25 Nov 2019, 15:19
+0 -0
Your knowledge of law needs to be expressed in English since that's the medium of instruction. I seriously doubt any NLU faculty expects flowery language in any exam from a student. Simply correct usage of the language is more than sufficient. But if students aren't even understanding what's being discussed in class or being unable to follow the texts properly, how exactly would that happen? All I'm saying is that expecting it to happen at a university level with the existing resource level of NLUs is not realistic.
Guest1 26 Nov 2019, 05:01
+1 -0
Well - one could try teaching them and see if it takes - even a serious effort isn’t being made in NLUs- and considering how much resistance the very idea is meeting on this online thread - one wonders if the apathy is to preserve hierarchy.
Guest1 26 Nov 2019, 07:04
+1 -0
That’s not true!

First you are assuming that one needs to be completely proficient in English to understand anything that happens in classrooms - one doesn’t. Many professors would be glad to accept student class participation in other languages as long as it isn’t extremely time consuming. This does happen in other universities in India- off the top of my head students at APU and TISS atleast speak in regional languages in the classroom. It doesn’t seem to impede the learning project any.
Second, students can be taught English on the side so that they learn it fairly well by the time they have to read the really heavy stuff which doesn’t happen in the first few semesters.
And finally, the lack of resources argument is boring and disingenuous.
NLUs routinely spend lots of money on relatively unimportant projects compared to improving access to legal education. Funding elite students to go to international competition - which - even if they win becomes completely irrelevant even a few
Years after they win it. Funding debate competitions where more students focus on getting high than getting knowledge , organising lavish festivals for the “culture” which is essentially just another excuse to party.
They spend all of this money because that’s what students want - and that will remain so until there is literally any effort made to be more inclusive. Some effort not at preserving the ivory tower but at democratising it. If NLUs can find the resources for all of that- they can find resources to improve students from a disadvantaged background. They don’t want to- and they should own up to it.

And before you start about the prestige foreign competitions bring/ the importance of them in educating students- that is also simply not true. I graduated from a top tier NLU not that long ago - and I couldn’t tell you who won which moot or what they learnt from it. I couldn’t even tell you what moots I participated in. And winning a moot did not help anyone land a job or keep one. Further , if the mock trial is supposed to be so very educational - students can be encouraged to intern and get there on their own dime.
Guest 26 Nov 2019, 09:03
+0 -0
Regarding your first point, how many regional languages do those faculty know that they can converse with students from all across the country in their respective vernacular? What you said indicates certain regional sections would be favoured over others, depending on which region the teacher belongs to. Similarly, classroom discussion ideally shouldn't only be limited to teacher and students but also between students, there too usage of vernacular would create a problem in a diverse classroom.

Second point about the 'really heavy stuff' not starting before a few semesters, not sure how things are done at your NLU, but if one has to read Common Law judgements in Contracts or even some of the Sociology articles, that's as heavy as it gets in terms of English and all that happens in first year across many NLUs.

Regarding your third point about priority and resource allocation, that I agree with. But a word to the wise, saying that you don't even remember the moots that you'd attended isn't simply helping your case. It displays your callousness as a student, not the unimportance of the competitions. Nor is it entirely true that winning those don't have CV values for recruitment purposes. Not a lot perhaps and their absence can be compensated for in other ways, sure. But the value is there. If you say there is none, then I'm afraid you don't have an accurate impression of the industry.
Guest1 26 Nov 2019, 13:53
+0 -0
They don’t know every language under the sun - they don’t need to - if you would go and observe yourself you would see that these classrooms actually work because professors and other students help each other be understood.

I went to a fairly top tier law school. Sure at the time reading for sociology and contracts might have seemed difficult - but with the benefit of hindsight - it was fairly dumbed down so that a learning curve was maintained and students were allowed to ease in to law school. In any case- I have seen students who don’t speak much English look up every word in a dictionary and understand even the most complex texts. If they have the determination who is anyone to deny them?

I graduated more than a couple of years ago - and I am good enough at what I do for people to not need to even consider what moots I did in college - wiped them from my CV and it doesn’t seem to affect anyone. Not a callous student back in the day- just a wise one now. The marginal value that these competitions bring to student welfare are hardly worth the cost. There are many other ways to build your CV than at the expense of the student body which might have different priorities than obtaining bragging rights.
Guest 26 Nov 2019, 16:24
+3 -0
@Guest 1: I've been the person who'd been trying to argue about the viability or lack thereof of effective English training in law schools with you (not the ones using derisive rebuttals or ad hominem, mentioning that because it may get a bit confused otherwise). I admit that you've convinced me about several of the issues that you have been talking about. I wish more and more people who are in law schools now, students, faculty, alumni and admin start thinking along these lines. I've no qualms in recognising logic even in an opposing argument. I for one would definitely try henceforth to convince people about the possibilities that you mentioned here. I would also try reaching out to the foreign universities to figure out the modalities of the support programmes that you mentioned and try to suggest similar things to my alma mater at least. At least we won't be any worse off for trying even if they don't show immediate results.
Guest1 27 Nov 2019, 21:12
+1 -0
Hey! This rarely happens on online discussion boards. I am glad so much of that time wasn’t wasted! Yay!
Guest 23 Nov 2019, 13:17
+7 -5
Dear Divya, first ask NLSIU students/alumni to drop their opposition for 50% domicile quota, then lecture us on anti-elitism.
Guest 23 Nov 2019, 14:08
+11 -0
Because the domicile quota would get in more underprivileged students from Karnataka instead of thirty more privileged students residing in Bangalore? What a ridiculous argument!
Guest 23 Nov 2019, 14:17
+4 -7
Keep snowflake socialism culture out of law schools, please.
Aayansh 23 Nov 2019, 22:49
+1 -0
Sorry for hijacking this post, but, does annyone in the know have an idea of as to how CLAT will test current affairs this year? Will it be a continuation of the previous years' pattern with emphasis on trivia? Or will there be a change? How will the current affairs questions be asked in a 'comprehension-based' manner?

Any and all help will be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!
Observer 24 Nov 2019, 04:09
+0 -0
Probably it will be mix bag of upsc type easy level and some direct questions also..questions may also be reduced by 10 to 20 .
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 04:27
+2 -0
Wait and watch. Nobody here can give you an accurate answer to that. I doubt the Consortium is exactly clear at this stage either.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 04:46
+0 -0
Here is an example of comprehension based GK versus regular GK. Regular GK question:

1) Lawyer for Muslim side in Ayodhya case was... 4 names

2) Argument made by Muslim side was... 4 arguments differing slightly in wording, choose the most accurate description.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 00:26
+1 -3
NUJS may start CLAT in Bengali with 50% local quota.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 04:27
+4 -0
You may start speaking sense at some point of time in your life. One lives in hope.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 04:42
+0 -0
NLUs must maintain elitism and excellence. These are not bad things.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 05:31
+4 -0
Excellence isn't. Elitism is.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 06:08
+2 -1
Especially because education is supposed to make you humble. Although one won't realise that on seeing NLU grads these days.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 04:50
+0 -1
There is NOTHING wrong with the composition of students at NLUs. It is very diverse. And there must be emphasis on English. Next time I hear this nonsensical self-hate I'll just bang my head against the wall.
Guest1 24 Nov 2019, 18:13
+0 -0
To the contrary , if you spoke to any of these “diverse” people and encouraged candour, you would find that there is a lot wrong with Student body composition at NLUs. Several marginalised students feel like the institution just isn’t built for them- and it absolutely should be. And just in terms of what is seen as meritorious in the NLU context itself needs to be re-examined.

Lawrence Liang spoke excellent English but was still a bad colleague and mentor to the students he abused. The model of merit that is built on existing social hierarchy must be re-examined.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 05:03
+0 -1
Guys, please suggest CLAT/AILET preference according to placements scenario ONLY.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 05:30
+3 -1
Please stop seeking advice from anonymous people from online platforms. In case you're a ranking junkie masquerading as a CLAT aspirant, please get therapy.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 05:53
+2 -0
Study, get rank 1. Then choose Law School. Safest option.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 07:17
+1 -0
The most underrepresented people in law schools are Muslim women, Jat women, Parsis and Sikhs, none of whom get any reservation.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 08:24
+1 -0
That's not a bad point at all. I'd like to see more people from all those communities in law school. Incidentally, I wonder whether the J&K reservations would continue to be there after abrogation of 370? Kian, might be something for you to look into.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 07:27
+1 -1
Maybe it's time for a "ranking" of how inclusive and progressive law schools are? Just a few days ago there was a shameful incident where a supposedly leading NLU protected a sexual harasser.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 08:22
+1 -0
NLU admin have been doing that since ages. Either to protect the offender or to protect themselves. Every single law school has had multiple instances of sexual harassment in the past and ongoing ones too.
Hexabin 24 Nov 2019, 08:47
+3 -0
I have cracked CLAT twice with no prep at all. Albeit, my rank first time was in early 3 digits and in early 4 digits the other time. I have also given AILET once (when I gave the AILET 2nd time). The GK\Current Affairs section is what disturbs me most. The question have no pattern, no coherence, nothing at all.

In one of the exam (CLAT\AILET) I wrote, one of the question asked me to answer something about the composer of the movie Dhobi Ghat.

Say what you will about JGLS and other LSAT affiliated colleges, I really think that they should adopt LSAT as the entrance exam. It is methodological and tests candidates in an objective manner. Most importantly, it tests aptitude so there is no real need of going to a cram school for a year or two.
Or at the very least, use it as a standard to design the exam. The only issue I can see with LSAT is perhaps the level of English is bit too high for a diverse Indian audience, rest all is great.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 10:23
+0 -1
I agree. In fact, it will be good if LI does a comparison between the LSAT and CLAT papers. There is no doubt that the LSAT is a superior test.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 12:14
+1 -0
Doubt there's any need to compare. LSAT is likely to be of better quality. However, what's strange is that why the students who can crack the superior quality test fail to crack the inferior one in that case. For majority students, LSAT is still only a backup option if they fail to crack CLAT.
not a good arugment 24 Nov 2019, 14:55
+0 -0
"However, what's strange is that why the students who can crack the superior quality test fail to crack the inferior one in that case." That is not too surprising. The two exams are testing two very different set of things : one tests memory and the other one tests analytical abilities and aptitude. To illustrate, one may such at memorising the verses of a particular poem (and fail a test that asks you to reproduce the verses) but can posses the talent to read and explain the meaning of the poem (and consequently ace a test that examines this skill.)

Reading through the comments, i can understand that a lot of good hearted, motivated people are arguing for taking the emphasis away from language to improve accessibility. let us recognise that this demand comes from a good place in their hearts and respect that. the trouble is that language is so integral to the law - after all the law is at the heart of it an enterprise in language. This is much like what math is for engineering or chemistry is for medicine. There is no way that one can excel at law without a grip over english language.

I dont think remedial classes and . quick fixes of this sort is a substitute for good schooling (which is rare in our country and is mostly bundled up with privilege). Some individuals struggle and learn the language at law school (provided they had some basics in place). I have seen some of my classmates who could not speak a word in the first year improve a lot and turn out to be good speakers who can hold a conversation with anyone by the time they reached their final years. They learned from their peers, put in efforts and aced at it down the line. No substitute for that effort is available. I think the fact that he had some basic english in place made that transformation much easier.
Guest1 24 Nov 2019, 23:14
+0 -0
I would beg to differ. Remedial classes are not quick fixes - it’s a long process of introducing a language to people while providing support with writing. It is wrong to say that if one didn’t learn a language in school - one can never learn it. Adults learn new languages all the time, ask any number of people who have learnt French or Spanish or German by going to classes. There is no reason that English can’t be learnt the same way.

Further - a lot of the law is about language yes. But language is not limited to English. Language means understanding how words are used and how interpretations can be distingushed and chosen from. Law is also understanding a system of rules and how different interpretations can be arrived at and the impact these interpretations have.
Lawyers in China only learn law in cantonese and mandarin- doesn’t make them less as lawyers. If all you learn from law school is to write in high falutin English, law school would have certainly failed you.
Guest 25 Nov 2019, 04:47
+0 -0
There's a difference between learning a foreign language and these remedial classes though. You aren't tested in the foreign language until you've achieved a level of proficiency. Here the students are having to listen to lectures in English everyday, write projects in the first three months, write exams at the end of the semester, give vivas in English and so on. As you said yourself, remedial classes aren't quick fixes. How to ensure the students get through the first semester then? Of course, those willing to put in a lot of hard work, dedication etc. can probably do it, but my law school experience has told me that most of these students are simply unable to cope and keep failing or scoring poorly, thereby sapping their morale even further.
Guest1 25 Nov 2019, 14:41
+1 -0
I can only tell you what my experience has been at an international university. Students are invited to the university 6 weeks before regular classes begin to get help on their English. These students are experts in their field - but often don’t speak or write much English.
There’s an intensive well designed 6 week programme with trained professionals.
Students are not punished or shamed for asking what something means when a teacher says a new word in class. Often if there is another student who translates. It isn’t hard when you have a diverse classroom.
For writing papers/ preparing for vivas - students go to the writing/ language support centre and get appointments to get feedback on their writing and spoken English.
By the time exams roll around - with so much Support and training - students do quite well , even topping the class. The exams are also not focused on how “articulate” one is - but on ones knowledge and comprehension of the law.
Students at these universities treat knowing English as just another skill / they learn it individually and in groups and are assigned peer tutors and avail of the services at the language centre.
They do all this while also studying a full course load.
And this isn’t just English- students who need to learn Spanish/ south Asian/ African languages learn them the same way. Students who want to learn statistical analysis and using STATA/ coding in R also learn those languages the same way.

K-10/12 schooling isn’t supposed to teaching reading writing and arithmetic. Not in anyone language - but the process of how to read and write and count. Engineering students can learn c++ and java in college- law students can learn English.
Guest 25 Nov 2019, 06:52
+0 -0
The Chinese analogy isn't appropriate in this case. There they can also practise law using their language (which is again fairly universal and compulsory at school level). Their books are also often written in those languages and only translated into English subsequently. The common language advantage is still there, it's just that the language is another one instead of English. Can you suggest any acceptable common Indian language that can be a substitute?
Guest1 25 Nov 2019, 14:30
+0 -0
Clearly reading comprehension is different from just knowing the language. The Chinese analogy was used to simply show that the practice/ knowledge of law doesn’t require English. Or any one particular language.

It does require a common language- I have never argued that it doesn’t - but one can cultivate those language skills while being in law school / if one has enough institutional support.
Hexabin 24 Nov 2019, 15:01
+0 -0
How do you know that those who fare well in LSAT don't do so in CLAT. Also, CLAT is higly unpredictable so there is that as well.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 17:55
+0 -0
If they do, they would choose the top NLUs usually. But I agree with you about the unpredictability. CLAT is certainly sub-par in terms of overall exam quality.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 10:31
+0 -2
NLUD has been accused by its own students of casteism. Think twice before choosing this law school. The social attitudes of North India are as toxic as the smog.

https://www.lawctopus.com/nlud-dalit-adivasi-students/
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 12:24
+0 -0
Just read the letter. These are some grave issues that need to be addressed soon. Sadly, I have a suspicion most of the other NLUs are not faring any better in this regard either. It's just that their students are yet to come forward in this organized fashion.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 16:18
+0 -0
To those comparing LSAT v CLAT: Even though LSAT is a better exam, remember that less than 5% of CLAT examinees sit for LSAT. That's because only rich kids who fail to get into NLUs apply to Jindal. Regular kids who do not make it to NLUs apply to GLC, Symbi, GGSIP etc. Thus, a rank 1 in LSAT means rank 10,000 in CLAT as you are competing against better students.
Guest 24 Nov 2019, 17:54
+0 -0
That's not accurate at all. LSAT happens almost alongside CLAT and certainly way before the CLAT results are out. And it's not only JGLS that takes in through LSAT these days, there are other private law schools too using that score. I agree that the total number of examinees for LSAT is certainly less than CLAT though, but not the way you are suggesting.
In defence 25 Nov 2019, 10:50
+2 -1
It is interesting to see how several people have gotten the main argument of the article wrong. The author, in my opinion, has not advocated doing away English altogether anywhere in the article. To me, his argument seems to be that the new pattern will focus more on English to the exclusion of other sections than the earlier pattern. He doesn’t seem to be against the utility of English in general, but seems to me opposing a move towards a test which tests primarily on English. He has advocated testing of other skills in a less convoluted language- and not in vernacular, which to my mind is a fair demand. A working knowledge of English can work in law school and the students will have opportunities inside law school to improve their communication and language skills. English, in no way, the only determinant of how good a lawyer you can be.

P.S. - I am undergraduate student of the same University as he is.
Guest 25 Nov 2019, 12:42
+1 -1
He hasn't expressed his thoughts very well then. At times, he's almost argued in favor of questions testing rote learning because students can 'prepare' for that, as opposed to questions testing one's understanding or analytical and comprehensive ability. Why the assumption that comprehension-based questions would automatically involve 'complex' English when the ones actually having been asked so far in that category haven't been complicated to any person having standard English knowledge? The only way it makes sense if you interpret it as the author advocating the need to get people with sub-standard English knowledge or skill into law school. Now one may argue as others have been doing here as to the pros and cons of that, but saying that the author didn't mean at all for such an interpretation is a specious argument at best.
Guest1 25 Nov 2019, 14:46
+1 -0
Cause when you test people on something they’re not prepared for - you privilege the ones who might have had that preparation otherwise. If I sat a law student and an engineering student in an exam and asked them to write code, the engineering student would do better.
I don’t think the idea is that rote learning should be preferred- just that one should be careful about how comprehension based questions are framed and what they are testing. Are they testing English? Or comprehension?
Guest 25 Nov 2019, 15:57
+0 -0
You aren't making any sense. If everybody knows that a certain category of questions are going to be asked, then why would one set of students not be prepared for it while the other set would be? Now if you're saying the first set couldn't have prepared for it despite being aware of it, then that's a different matter altogether.
Guest1 26 Nov 2019, 13:59
+0 -0
I’m saying when questions all students can’t prepare for - comprehension based questions for example- rely on knowledge of English and test little else - it privileges students who have gone to English medium schools and come from the kind of socio economic background that makes it possible for them to know the right answer.

To truly level the playing field- one has to either ensure the comprehension based question actually tests comprehension and not English- or allow all students a reasonable opportunity to study and learn the vocabulary needed to answer these questions.
Guest 26 Nov 2019, 01:59
+0 -0
Lots of [...] foolish comments. How will you study papers like constitutional law and jurisprudence with poor English?
Guest1 26 Nov 2019, 13:56
+0 -0
Well with enough support and resources and determination I don’t see why one couldn’t learn constitutional law or jurisprudence or even nuclear fusion without being very good at English . This does happen in law schools across the world.
Guest 26 Nov 2019, 09:36
+1 -1
This thread has been hijacked by insane leftists who wish for Indian universities to remain a sea of mediocrity.
Guest1 26 Nov 2019, 13:46
+1 -0
Or caste and economic privilege has blinded you to what real merit means. And being called out on it makes you uncomfortable.
Guest 22 Jan 2020, 04:10
+0 -0
Sudhir has spoken on new CLAT format. His comments + the sample paper show an intention to get English-speaking kids from big cities, instead of coaching centre products from small towns whose English is weak and rely on memorisation.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/clat-2020-to-focus-on-comprehension-skills/articleshow/73499899.cms
Guest 22 Jan 2020, 05:09
+1 -0
Because elitism isn't already rampant in the NLUs. And these people call themselves social activists and educationists! For shame!
Guest 22 Jan 2020, 11:07
+0 -0
Big city students are as much products of coaching centres than anyone else. More, in fact.