Being human: Janhavi Gadkar’s slow motion media car crash has made her a punching bag stand-in for a lakh others

The story of corporate lawyer Janhavi Gadkar allegedly killing two men in a taxi while she was driving her Audi drunkenly down the wrong side of a Mumbai highway is deeply tragic and troubling, in many different ways.

First and foremost, the fate of the two blameless victims - Mohd Salim Saboowala, aged 50, and the taxi’s driver Mohd Hussain Sayaed, aged 57 - is tragic without reservation. Indeed, the death of the sober who have done nothing wrong is tragic in every drink driving case (and even more tragic is the victim blaming by defence lawyers or supporters is rife, if almost universally condemned, in similar cases).

But if the events in the Gadkar case happened as they have been alleged, there certainly appears to be legal and moral culpability and the law should and hopefully will take its proper course.

However, in parallel a trial by media is taking place right now that has turned into a self-righteous witch hunt that will achieve little in making our roads safer.

People’s frustrations about the outcome of the Salman Khan case, who got bail immediately after having been pronounced guilty by a trial court after 13 years, and other cases similar to Khan’s that semi-regularly hit the headlines, have frictionlessly been transferred directly onto Gadkar.

Being human

I have never interacted with Gadkar, to the best of my knowledge, but Gadkar is presumably a normal and fallible human being, as the rest of us, and for some she is also presumably a former colleague or friend.

She has allegedly made at least one big mistake while in a state of severe inebriation, but morally, does that make her a monster?

She wouldn’t be the first or the last to have made a big mistake while drunk, and she wouldn’t by any means be the only one where such a mistake has cost lives.

Statistics from 2011 showed that 70 per cent of 1.34 lakh road accident fatalities in India were due to drunken driving.

That does not absolve Gadkar from blame, but just like every other drunken driver, she must be entitled to a fair trial no matter what she has allegedly done.

However, that’s not the narrative that’s currently the flavour of the week in the media, online and off.

De-human

Barkha Dutt tweeted acidly on Friday:

Janhvi Gadkar - Poor Little Rich Girl. You killed two people. All your money wont buy you the grit& grace of their families. Drink to that.

None of us know all the circumstances relating to this accident, despite heavy media coverage of minute detail after detail, in-part powered by unnamed police officials, as it so often is, who are eager to share details of their investigation and Gadkar’s statements given to them (presumably, in part, while she was still inebriated).

Reporters filled in the blanks with some good old-fashioned detective work (according to the Mumbai Mirror, she told cops that she had had two pegs of whiskey but the restaurant bill said she bought six small pegs, at Rs 502 plus taxes each; she allegedly told the lawyer friend she drank with “don’t worry, I have done this before”; the Mirror also ‘found out’ that she had not eaten after having drunk and the paper somehow established that she had drunk exactly 180ml of whiskey, 150ml above the legal limit).

So let me speculate and make some things up completely out of thin air about person X, that could absolve someone in a similar situation to her morally and/or legally to varying degrees.

Maybe X’s drink was spiked? Maybe a third party drank some of X’s drinks or the restaurant overbilled and she only had two pegs after all? Maybe the drink interacted in an unknown way with some medication X was taking? Maybe X is bipolar and was in the midst of a manic episode, causing X to take greater risks and drink to excess?

Or, maybe X simply made a very stupid mistake with terrible consequences for others.

The fact is that until there is a trial and she is proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt we don’t really know anything other than what the media is writing about it and what the police are telling us (who obviously have an incentive to showing off their drunk-driver-busting skills). There could be any of a hundred different reasons that could at least in-part excuse why someone in Gadkar’s or X’s position could have done what she allegedly did.

The impulse to drum up a media storm to ensure she does not ‘escape justice’ is strong but it is misplaced. Writing her off as an Untermensch is easiest, as it is to transfer our frustrations from the rich and famous who escape justice onto this “poor little rich girl”, quoting Dutt.

I don’t know who her family is or how rich or little she is at age 35, but working an upper-mid-level legal department job at Reliance Industries would likely place her amongst Bombay’s higher earners.

It is therefore a fact that she will be able to afford pretty decent defence lawyers, which is something that 90 per cent (if not 99 per cent) of people accused of a serious crime in India will never get access to.

But she is not a Salman Khan in any way other than her being more privileged than the average person. Like Khan she is also photogenic, which means newspapers will happily use her pictures on front pages.

Everyman

Gadkar, being so similar to many of the English-language media’s readers and viewer, has become a convenient but powerless stand-in for every single drunk driver who ever killed anyone, while also feeding into middle-class angst with the narrative of, “this could have been us or one of our friends”, and India’s righteous anger about the rich getting away with murder (which, frankly, they do every day).

But being privileged or a woman or being able to afford decent lawyers is not Gadkar’s fault either, and stereotyping her as a spoilt and entitled rich girl is despicable and reeks of sexism to boot.

“Instead of beer, I had two pegs of Ballantine’s whiskey for fun,” she reportedly told police, presumably while still drunk (it’s not clear if a lawyer was present while she allegedly said this).

That reported statement alone prompted plenty of ink to be spilled, including an opinion column in the Daily O, headlined “these women who drink whisky for fun”. It blamed “Jahnavi Gadkar, homicidal maniac of a drunken lawyer who killed an innocent father and a taxi driver”, for setting back women’s hard-won right to have “fun” (as “the headlines the day after scream ‘woman has whisky ‘for fun’ and kills innocents’”).

The subtext is that this woman has let the side down by daring to make the same mistake that lakhs of men and other women make every year, and should be blamed for the next day’s sensationalist headlines too.

“Another drunk-driving accident: Why do Indians think that the laws are for someone else?” read a Scroll.in headline to an article that dealt largely in what-ifs about how Gadkar’s could have avoided doing what she allegedly did.

Unfortunately the ‘Indian psyche’ is practically unlikely to be a major cause of people drunk driving.

In the USA, drunk driving contributed to 31 per cent of all 10,076 traffic deaths in 2013, and it and other Western countries have mostly managed to cut their drunk driving death rates with a mix of stricter enforcement, public awareness campaigns and public attitudes towards drunk driving.

India’s problem will lie with all of these, but mostly with the fact that a law, which is not properly enforced, becomes a law that loses its power.

The role that law enforcement plays in all this is central. The fact is that particularly in places like Mumbai or Delhi, driving while having drunk a drink or two or three is worryingly commonplace.

The insidious thing with booze is that the more of it you have, the more confident you’ll (wrongly) feel that you are sober enough to drive home.

On top of that, the drunker you are, the more confident you’ll become that should the police catch you, all you need to do is flash your advocate’s or press card to get you off (in most cities).

And if that doesn’t work, your slight inebriation is probably nothing that a few hundred Rupees for the friendly neighbourhood cop won’t fix.

So rather than demonising one woman who has allegedly made one very big mistake that she is certain to regret for the rest of her life and that many other people make every night, we should be focusing our energies on fixing ineffective policing and enforcement of our laws, as well as our judicial system so it does not take 13 years or longer to get some half-hearted versions justice.

Let’s get something clear: roasting Gadkar in the nine circles of hell on Twitter, in talk shows or in opinion columns, is not a public awareness campaign; it is first and foremost about feeding an outrage industry.

And whoever is the target of the week for such outrage will quickly be forgotten and replaced by another, equally easy target next week, while the real problems remain unsolved, and as that cycle goes on, more lives will continue to be tragically lost to drunk driving again, week after week, night after night.

Comments

Irony 13 Jun 2015, 17:45
+39 -19
Kian its ironical you talk about media trials. Spare us please
kianganz 13 Jun 2015, 20:25
+20 -16
That's nice, thanks. Please feel free to actually give concrete examples of any media trials you think we've conducted, and I'll be more than happy to explain to you why they weren't.
Guest 15 Jun 2015, 03:14
+14 -1
Kian, you are doing mischief by conducting media trial of BCI :). I hope that you succeed in your mischief and we have a better BCI.

On a serious note, if the other car also had airbags possibly such tragedy could have been averted.

It's one thing to blame the person driving and easy too!

But what many in the media are ignoring is the weak safety standards in India for automobiles as compared to developed countries. In many countries a car can't be sold without airbags, Abs and Ebd and very soon ESP too!

Another focus area should be prevention of drunk driving.

This one incident would be forgotten soon, until next time unless some broader steps are taken to eradicate the problem from its root.
Duhh 15 Jun 2015, 07:26
+5 -0
Your post on the NLUD blog post and censoring all comments that basically said anything different. Comments also screamed asking whether all the facts in the blog post had been verified.

This post essentially states that let us not make a judgment without knowing all the facts...the NLUD blog post may not have tried anyone in particular, but it specifically did pronounce judgment
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 07:31
+2 -6
There was no criminal charges or appeal going on, so any of the anonymous accused's rights of a 'fair trial' were not being violated.
Duhh 19 Jun 2015, 17:44
+4 -0
What a ridiculous technical argument..the point is simple, the media can't pronounce any judgment without the complete facts. I swear by the principle...only if you were to practice what you preach...
Anon 13 Jun 2015, 18:08
+28 -2
For once Kian, you have written something sensible.
Guest 14 Jun 2015, 21:18
+5 -5
Instead of banning beef eating, govt should ban drinking. At least no one dies of beef eating.
Guest 13 Jun 2015, 18:14
+10 -13
Her ex-husband works for CAM.
kianganz 13 Jun 2015, 20:26
+48 -8
And that should matter why exactly?
Dinesh 15 Jun 2015, 05:20
+3 -0
If it were your family mate, lets see how much of what you said you would own up to,people like u and salman shud be thrown in jail for ever
Robin 15 Jun 2015, 16:43
+1 -1
Dinesh,

There are millions of people in Delhi who use to talk over the phone while driving and when they meet with any such accident due to their negligence/carelessness, how should they be treated? Should they be hanged till death. I am asking this question to all those who use to talk over the phone while driving. Here, one more question arises, if suppose any such accident take place by these common people, does media creates hype of any such incident. Definitely, NO!!

Put it this way, If you are driving a car and at the same time you are taking over the phone and accidentally you hit someone on the roadside and the person dies - Should you be hanged for this?


The crux of Kian's story is that Kian's does understand that the incident was obviously unfortunate, and two innocent people died due to negligence of a drunk person. But at the same time Kian wants to draw your attention on on one very basic issue which is very common in all the metropolitan cites like Delhi and Mumbai where people use to talk over the phone while driving or even they do not wear seat belts. If these people sometime meet with the same incident how should they be treated by Media?

Of Course, there is law and it is the duty of the court to decide what went wrong and what punishment should be given to the guilty to meet with the justice.
Guest 20 Jun 2015, 11:27
+0 -1
[quote name="Robin"]Dinesh,

There are millions of people in Delhi who use to talk over the phone while driving and when they meet with any such accident due to their negligence/carelessness, how should they be treated? Should they be hanged till death. I am asking this question to all those who use to talk over the phone while driving. Here, one more question arises, if suppose any such accident take place by these common people, does media creates hype of any such incident. Definitely, NO!!

Put it this way, If you are driving a car and at the same time you are taking over the phone and accidentally you hit someone on the roadside and the person dies - Should you be hanged for this?


The crux of Kian's story is that Kian's does understand that the incident was obviously unfortunate, and two innocent people died due to negligence of a drunk person. But at the same time Kian wants to draw your attention on on one very basic issue which is very common in all the metropolitan cites like Delhi and Mumbai where people use to talk over the phone while driving or even they do not wear seat belts. If these people sometime meet with the same incident how should they be treated by Media?

Of Course, there is law and it is the duty of the court to decide what went wrong and what punishment should be given to the guilty to meet with the justice.[/quote]

Using a mobile while driving is like juggling grenades. That's why there's a law against it. I find even the ringtone of a mobile in the vehicle highly distracting.

It is precisely because "millions of people" in Delhi drive while using a mobile that Delhi has the highest rate of auto-fatalities in India. All the more reason to make some examples and start handing out some tough sentences. No need to hang anybody, a 10 year non-paroleable sentence will do the trick. A media trial might at least bring some attention to the issue and alert the cops (and drivers) to be more vigilant.
rohit 20 Jun 2015, 10:56
+0 -0
Its unfortunate that u defend such a terrible act ! RIL, her employer, is advising don't drink and drive and author is cooking defence theories.
vent 13 Jun 2015, 18:18
+11 -12
thing is, she is Stupid! Being a Lawyer she should have been more responsible.
kianganz 13 Jun 2015, 20:28
+25 -11
She allegedly did a stupid thing but lots of lawyers and non-lawyers do that every day.

What now, that you've shared your opinion?
vent 14 Jun 2015, 08:33
+5 -4
She apparently has made a statement that she drank for for fun! She is a lawyer, she is expected to know the consequences of driving drunk.
Often celebs cry hoarse when they committ a crime that they be are treated differently/harshly just because they are celebs.
This media trial in gadkar's case is also following the same path! 'She is a lawyer so she should have known' , 'cancel bar licence' !!!
ayonbat 14 Jun 2015, 09:00
+9 -6
Kian tell me something don't you know that you should take a cab when you are drunk. Becoming a lawyer or a film star doesn't change anything. She was drunk and in that she drove her own car so please stop justifying her. She was drunk and still was driving that is a crime.
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 09:24
+10 -4
Never said it wasn't a crime, I think we all agree no that.

She has been arrested and charged, so let's the courts do their job and let media report on it fairly without the outrage that is only being employed for TRPs...
XXX 14 Jun 2015, 18:51
+2 -2
Seems like Kian is doing something not for the TRPs or hits on his website this time.. hmmm.... Do we need to dig deeper?
Kaushik 16 Jun 2015, 09:33
+4 -1
Seriously, you are going to reply to every comment if it didn't match your view point, and thats how you are going to defend this evil act by matching other evil acts on the society. You made your point, dare let other share their point, if not take out comments section and Thank your editor for the opportunity

In your media language, content creation and making it to sell against competition is the job for so called journalists/media houses, in emotional issues it going to be different version of the stories like this for people employed on this domain to keep the tempo going for couple of weeks/month. Add-in social channels its multi-folded. Just imagine, replace the Omni vehicle with School Bus, will you dare write this article even though the message is same?

Before you pull in another other statistics from civil structurally strong western country for showcase, Indian people vent out here because "Law/Judiciary fail to deliver here". If you dare touch/criticize them. Police are easy to bully to act, when shouted they will oblige.

Attention will prevail till another elite member does any pinching act to override this. At this point let people vent out their emotions and they will. what else on offer.
Guest 16 Jun 2015, 20:27
+3 -2
[quote name="kianganz"]She allegedly did a stupid thing but lots of lawyers and non-lawyers do that every day.

[/quote]

Are you kidding?

Lots of lawyers and non-lawyers indulge in extreme dangerous acts that endanger the lives and limbs of those around them ???? Really ??

Are you speaking for yourself Kian, coz you sure as hell dont speak for this lawyer (and all the lawyer / non lawyer friends and family of mine).

This female who is now in custody is part of a growing trend of being grossly negligent to the point of being criminal and then when caught, try to evoke sympathy using logic such as :

"She was a hardworking person but made a mistake"
"She cared a lot for people around her"
"She's being victimised"
"She did charity"
"She is being demonised"
"Media Trial"

I mean are you nuts?? I guess you are writing this farce of an "article" because you harbour deep insecurities. Maybe it could have been you instead of Jahanvai.You're just quick to show a "perspective" as a way of assuaging any guilt you may have arising from something similar you or your friends have indulged in the past.

The fact is that she's a criminal. Criminal because she knowingly did not comply with safety laws and in the process two lives were lost for nothing. In my book this is a shameful criminal act and the thought that she will walk after a few years makes me throw up -- as does the tone of this irresponsible and ludicrous article. I feel worried that youngsters reading your article will think its ok to DUI and not doing so is just a "mistake" in the court of moral standing if not the court of law.

Maybe the day Mrs or Master Ganz falls victim to a similar 'mistaken' driver, you will understand the sheer criminality of this act. Till then take a break from expressing your views.
Robin 17 Jun 2015, 07:21
+0 -1
You are silly idiot
Guestopher 13 Jun 2015, 18:20
+5 -0
when did she work in Wadia Ghandy? Also, Kian, it seems Reliance has washed its hands off her by saying she was working in an 'advisory' capacity, so i assume that's on retainer basis & not proper employment!
Hic hic 13 Jun 2015, 23:19
+5 -1
What do you mean by Reliance has washed its hands. How do you think the situation would have been any different if Reliance had not issued this clarification. Its a drunken driving case not a corporate crime!!
Guestopher 14 Jun 2015, 08:35
+2 -1
CFO of Reliance has given his statement to the cops. He was partying with her apparently at Irish House. RIL have informed the stock exchange.
Aston Martin 13 Jun 2015, 18:22
+12 -0
Bad publicity for Reliance after the Aston Martin accident on Pedder rd!
excellent article 13 Jun 2015, 18:41
+39 -13
Kian,

Hats off to you for writing a well balanced piece that articulates what a lot of us who know Janhavi feel.

For what it is worth, while she had a great job and was highly regarded, from what I know and from press articles, her family is not particularly well off. She did very well for herself, but she did not appear to have a particularly privileged background.

This has been a tragedy in all respects. The way the media have reacted has been a tragedy as well. Spoilt little rich girl? At least the press can try and get the facts right.
That is right 14 Jun 2015, 03:27
+29 -8
She's only a Rich Girl because she's busted her gut working to make her money. She comes from a middle class family much like the rest of us growing up in India in the 80s and 90s. No doubt what she did was stupid, but the law (sic) should take its course before she is publicly hanged by the media.

Thanks for writing this piece.
No Thanks 14 Jun 2015, 12:41
+12 -21
Finally Feminist trolls are here defending its brethren, at least spare a alleged killer u ladies. No person who did such an act can be defended. u can keep on blaming laws, media but that simply doesn't justifies drunk driving, whether done by any body. God has given u sense to use. why not kill ur self and then blame the law, Does anybody does that.
Dafuq 16 Jun 2015, 10:49
+1 -1
I'm guessing you're not a lawyer. If you were you'd know everyone is entitled to a defence. And yes, two people died, but this isn't the worst crime possible. It isn't even close to the rarest of the rare standard for hanging someone, which is probably why its not a murder charge, but one of culpable homicide
Bling 13 Jun 2015, 19:19
+37 -15
unfortunately the mainstream media coverage is full of all forms of innuendos, How dare she drive an Audi which she bought with her own money? How dare she be so successful at such a young age? How dare she be divorced? How dare she drink with other men? How dare she have fun? You can feel these recriminations dying to come out in each of these news articles. Despicable howsoever the consequences of her actions, it is this thinly veiled chauvinism that colours the entire coverage. Punished she should be, but would a journalist go and dig up stories of what charity work she has done and whether she has worked with the poor in her life, I think not.
Hic hic 13 Jun 2015, 23:22
+29 -4
Dude, sorry to say this but God forbid imagine a situation where the one in the taxi were known to you, even if not related..You may sympathise with her but cant defend her on these grounds!!
Bling 14 Jun 2015, 03:20
+9 -4
No disputes on that and I am not defending her any circumstances. My issue is with the colluded nature of the media coverage of the issue which points to a whole different societal bias. After all this is not the worst accident that has happened in Mumbai right? She is guilty and should be punished but just to reinforce what I am saying the Times of India says this

http://m.timesofindia.com/city/mumbai/Body-basic-Alcohol-doesnt-go-down-well-with-women/articleshow/47660727.cms
No Thanks 14 Jun 2015, 12:44
+0 -3
The article contains facts, if u don't know. Its the ignorant ppl like u who try to compete even in drinking. why not compete in boxing or in weightlifting, u ignorant.
No Thanks 14 Jun 2015, 12:43
+1 -1
What a bullshit comment. charity work? By this yardstick salman khan should be in heaven.
Bling 14 Jun 2015, 14:17
+1 -1
No thanks... Are you an imbecile? Do you not understand English?
Ex-DnD 14 Jun 2015, 17:29
+2 -0
[quote name="Bling"]No thanks... Are you an imbecile? Do you not understand English?[/quote]

Are you from Desai Diwanji? To be replicating a certain partners dialogues and statements??
Bling 14 Jun 2015, 14:19
+1 -1
I am on the gender bias prevalent in MSM coverage. If you cannot understand English don't comment on a English website.
tuhu 15 Jun 2015, 06:07
+1 -0
what gender bias...???? she has killed two persons...how is gender relevant here?
kuku 15 Jun 2015, 06:08
+1 -0
what gender bias? can women get off lightly because she is a woman...she has killed two people....where does gender come in that?
baba 15 Jun 2015, 06:05
+1 -0
How dare does she kill two human beings... family men that too. I don't care about other matters
bsiltucth 13 Jun 2015, 19:28
+8 -11
She killed two people. One mother. One child.
Drunk or not. She should be hanged.
kianganz 13 Jun 2015, 20:30
+13 -5
I don't know who you're talking about or which articles you've been reading, but Gadkar allegedly killed two men, both in their fifties.
Fiftyfifty? 14 Jun 2015, 06:59
+5 -2
[quote name="kianganz"]I don't know who you're talking about or which articles you've been reading, but Gadkar allegedly killed two men, both in their fifties.[/quote]
Are you stressing on the age kian. 'Fifties'. They coul've very well lived a lot lot more had it not been her at the wheel
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 07:09
+8 -3
I'm merely mentioning the age, because the previous comment said "She killed two people. One mother. One child."
Varys 14 Jun 2015, 19:27
+2 -2
bsiltucth must be following Dr Swami's twitter feed
bsiltucth 13 Jun 2015, 19:29
+2 -0
Stupid mistake. Wow.
XXX 14 Jun 2015, 18:53
+1 -0
Bsiltucth - What drug are you on?? You shouldn't drive for sure.
Guest 13 Jun 2015, 22:54
+13 -10
A well balanced article. Glad u addressed the main problem.
Alabino 15 Jun 2015, 07:23
+0 -1
Nothing can be done. In this case of gadkar, court will refer the old cases for reference. Why cant we have naka bandi on major junctions. If we argue of less police force then think of sucurity provided to ministers and corporates.
Hic hic 13 Jun 2015, 22:56
+33 -2
The fact of the matter is that she was drunk when she was driving and killed two people. I dont know her and feel bad for her, but may be she had done it n number of times before (that is, driving when drunk) and got away with it. Media trial or no media trial, a wrong has been committed and she needs to be booked for it and punished accordingly.
Reader 14 Jun 2015, 06:09
+2 -3
Well written article.
Well done 14 Jun 2015, 01:18
+20 -1
Agree entirely with this. As an aside, Barkha Dutt clearly had her dose of b*tch pills before tweeting that! Has she forgotten all the rot on her that came out with the Radia tapes? Wish the media was a little more responsible.
Chi Chi 14 Jun 2015, 03:41
+15 -3
Why does the media keep referring to it as "Lawyer crashes Audi...". Does it matter whether it was an Audi or an i20? Don't unnecessarily try to drum it up as a rich-poor class issue. Report responsibly.
vantage 14 Jun 2015, 08:37
+13 -1
if it were an ordinary car, it wouldn't have got so much coverage! And she wouldn't have survived either it there weren't airbags!
Battling prejudices 14 Jun 2015, 04:02
+11 -4
Thanks Kian for putting forth what many of us are feeling - this unseeming focus on corporate high-flyer, a swanky car, post locality, woman (pretty photogenic one at that!), lawyer by qualification and separated - none of these are material to the unfortunate incident that has happened and yet MSM has gone to tabloid levels. If at all, I would say the truth is most of us will say, there but for the grace of God or chance, go I. It's a lesson to be learnt and applied for ourselves and our friends. The one article that focused on the automobile safety being an issue is of course not getting prominence - it's an inconvenient truth and could hurt ad revenues of MSM from auto dealers. http://www.firstpost.com/india/indias-auto-safety-crisis-why-janhavi-gadkar-survived-in-the-audi-and-those-in-the-taxi-didnt-2290856.html
Guest 14 Jun 2015, 04:09
+26 -15
Why don't I down 6 pegs of Ballentine's and meet you, Kian on the Eastern Freeway tonight? Note - Please drive an Eeco or any other car without airbags. On a very serious note, while a different perspective is always welcome, I don't see a hint of logic in this piece you have written. Please stop doing things to please lawfirms.
Akif 14 Jun 2015, 04:36
+14 -2
It is a very important issue that has been put up, the snail speed of Indian Judiciary and Media Trials. But, calling what she did, as 'mistake' is another mistake and is just trivialising the tragic incident. Being lawyers we all know the nuances of law, and that 'Law is reason, free from passion'
But should victim be ignored ? A boy is regretting getting good marks, a family is not going to celebrate Eid, this year. To many this would not make a impact. But Janhavi Gadkar should not be shown leniency by just saying that x percent of people commit this mistake every night. Driving at that speed, driving on wrong side after drinking 6 times the permissible limit, this should not be treated as an incident, it is by any yardstick of logic, a crime.
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 07:33
+8 -1
I don't think that a single person, including me, would disagree that it's a crime. But is it a crime that deserves round-the-clock media coverage and demonisation? We can argue for a long time about how much 'moral blame' should be attached to drink driving (some would say getting behind the wheel drunk is the worst thing anyone could do, while others would have sympathy, knowing that sometimes people make really stupid decisions while drunk).
vantage 14 Jun 2015, 08:40
+0 -0
[quote name="kianganz"]But is it a crime that deserves round-the-clock media coverage and demonisation? [/quote]
Kian, most of us know that as soon as Salman's Appeal in High Court starts, all the focus will shift there & Janhavi will be forgotten.
nnnn 15 Jun 2015, 06:13
+0 -1
Thank god for the media coverage. This is very much required. At least its creating awareness of drink driving. I was drunk last Saturday evening (Just like any other Saturday evening). But I chose to take a cab this time... because of all the media coverage. I will thank the media
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 07:34
+14 -4
Also, to be honest, I've barely read any articles about the victims (and I've certainly not seen any article about the victims get any significant play on social media, where I follow a lot of middle class types and journalists).

Fact is, the media doesn't *really* care about the victims really. This is going to offend some but I'm being intentionally crass, the most cynical of the tabloid media would have 'preferred' if the victims had been a mother and young child, or an upper-middle-class family of 5 (preferably not Muslims), or a bus full of beauty queens.

That would have meant that they could have done many more frontpage stories and profiles about the effect the accident had on the victims, which all their middle-class readers would have shared much more on social media.

And for the avoidance of doubt, I'm not saying any of the journalists wished anyone dead, but I'm nearly certain that at least one editor must have thought or maybe even told the hacks: Ok, we've done enough stories about the victims, we've done enough as our readers will care, let's get some more mileage out of rich daddy's girl and her Audi.
Akif 14 Jun 2015, 10:04
+2 -2
I agree that media is the most opportunistic entity these days, and they do not care of more fundamental things like public awareness, working on stricter laws against drunk-driving etc. but still there are few articles on victims by media:


http://www.abplive.in/india/2015/06/12/article616397.ece/Mumbai-has-lost-its-insaniyat-Families-of-Audi-crash-victims-seek-justice

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/mumbai-audi-crash-victims-daughter-shares-her-ordeal-with-rajdeep-sardesai/1/443911.html

http://m.timesofindia.com/city/mumbai/Audi-crash-Accident-victims-family-wants-lawyers-degree-to-be-confiscated/articleshow/47648023.cms


http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/national/mumbai-drunk-driving-accident-janhavi-gadkar-is-also-a-victim-says-lawyer/ar-BBl4Md4
Bombay Lawyer 14 Jun 2015, 11:00
+13 -0
Barely read articles about the victims? Please do read Mid-Day and HT they are full of them. It can't be helped if the only papers you are reading are the Times of Antilla.
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 15:01
+4 -1
Like I said, articles about the victims are in the minority, especially amongst what people on Twitter are sharing the most.

I don't read any of the 3 hardcopy papers you refer to, so I can't be 100% sure, but I dare you to do a test tomorrow: count the number of stories about her, and compare to number of stories about victims.

And if Gadkar had been a 50 year old man or a taxi driver, the story would have made page 4 at best in any of these papers...
Let me get this straight. 14 Jun 2015, 17:20
+3 -3
You don't read Mid Day and Hindustan Times and then write an article about biased media coverage. How do you even form that judgement without reading the former two widely circulated publications?

Next thing you'll be telling me you don't read the Mumbai Mirror.
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 18:43
+8 -1
I don't need to read them every day to know what is being published, because newspapers are nowadays on the internet, which can also do things like this (i.e. facts rather than your recollection about what you read in the paper the other day):

Mid-day:
9 articles mentioning Gadkar: http://www.mid-day.com/search/gadkar_all
2 mentioning Sabuwala: http://www.mid-day.com/search/sabuwala_all

Mirror:
7 mentioning Gadkar: http://www.mid-day.com/search/gadkar_all
6 mentioning Sabuwala (of which only 2 are actually about them, it seems): http://www.mumbaimirror.com/getsearchdata.cms?query=sabuwala

HT:
A staggering 23 mentioning Gadkar: http://www.hindustantimes.com/Search/search.aspx?q=gadkar&op=All&pt=all&auth=all
7 mentioning Sabuwala (of which 4 seem to actually be about the victims in some way): http://www.hindustantimes.com/Search/search.aspx?q=sabuwala&op=All&pt=all&auth=all
Let me get this straight. 14 Jun 2015, 19:19
+0 -2
Your metric is flawed if you are sorting just on the basis of mentions. You need to do a qualitative analysis of the coverage. How many sympathetic to Gadkar? How many to the victims? That's how you see if coverage is biased or not.

That being said, I do not think this case is getting disproportionate attention. In most drunk driving cases both the victim and the offender often die. It's not often that you have a situation like this where you get to examine the issue. Kudos to media for bringing it to our attention. First with Alistar Pereria's case, Salman Khan's and now this.

Hope someone will move a PIL to improve the situation of drunk driving.
Cyrus 14 Jun 2015, 14:32
+2 -2
Just wondering which 'class' YOU belong to, considering your comment that you 'follow a lot of middle class types....' Quite a nasty, filthy comment, showing your true colours and clearly indicating why your sympathies lie where they do. let's see if you post this
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 15:03
+3 -2
I think you misunderstand what I said (at least I hope you did). On Twitter what you do is you 'follow' people, to read their tweets.

The majority of people on Twitter in India are certainly middle class, and a large number are journalists, so I inevitably follow them.

Clearer now or still feeling nasty?
Robin 15 Jun 2015, 16:56
+0 -0
Stinking that a "Kabab" is burning there...he he he! Don't forget your days too are coming soon.
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 12:35
+0 -0
When you admit that you haven't read any articles about the 'victims' and that media doesn't care about them either, a careful reading of your article and all your response to comments show that you continue to be completely conspicuous about the victims or the feelings, sentiments, pathos or even pain of the next of kin.

Any mention about the victims is only in the passing and as a prelude to some argument or a legal / philosophical construct.

I find no difference between your educated sophist stance about the 'alleged offender's' rights and those of the numerous arguments and defense put out by RJD party as regards Ram Murti Verma. There too, the honourables pontificate about the 'right of the alleged' in having a fair trail and that the truth will out in court etc......all while a human was burnt alive.

Its sickening when one watches 'closing of ranks'..
kianganz 17 Jun 2015, 12:48
+0 -0
The suffering of victims of crime is well documented and undestood, and no one should need to read a column on a legal website about the right to fair trial, to tell you how tragic and horrific it is to lose a father, husband, friend or anyone else.

Just because I don't launch into hyperbole about their suffering, does not give you the right to judge how I feel about it or how much I care about other human lives.

If I had started the article beating my chest with homilies about how a violent death thrust about an innocent family is a terrible thing, would you have been happier?

I doubt it.
Barkha Sucks 14 Jun 2015, 04:37
+15 -2
Wonder whether Barkha Sucks would tweet acidly about the Aston Martin accident allegedly involving the Ambani scion? Me thinks not, given her disgustiny track record in the Radia tapes controversy.. But of course the same Barkha Sucks can latch on to and pound poor rich Jahnavi Gadkar..
XXX 14 Jun 2015, 18:56
+1 -0
YESSSS BARKHA SUCKS MAN... HYPOCRITE!!!!
Serious thought 14 Jun 2015, 04:43
+2 -2
Well written article, Kian.
Paid media 14 Jun 2015, 05:29
+12 -8
This article smacks of paid news.I quote what Kian has written:
Maybe X’s drink was spiked? Maybe a third party drank some of X’s drinks or the restaurant overbilled and she only had two pegs after all? Maybe the drink interacted in an unknown way with some medication X was taking? Maybe X is bipolar and was in the midst of a manic episode, causing X to take greater risks and drink to excess?

And what if X has links with certain websites who are trying to suggest she is innocent?
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 07:51
+4 -0
1. Did you somehow miss the paragraph in BOLD above that said: "So let me speculate and make some things up completely out of thin air about person X, that could absolve someone in a similar situation to her morally and/or legally to varying degrees."

The point, which you missed, is that we only ever hear one side of the story, and there could in theory be hundreds of extenuating factors, which her lawyer is sure to bring up in court to hopefully get a fair trial that won't be presided over by a judge playing to the media and popular opinion.

That said, once the legal process kicks in, it likely will take several years, and the odds seem very high that she will go to prison, if things actually went down as has been alleged in light of the evidence and witnesses apparently available.
Guest 14 Jun 2015, 11:43
+5 -3
[quote name="kianganz"]1. Did you somehow miss the paragraph in BOLD above that said: "So let me speculate and make some things up completely out of thin air about person X, that could absolve someone in a similar situation to her morally and/or legally to varying degrees."

The point, which you missed, is that we only ever hear one side of the story, and there could in theory be hundreds of extenuating factors, which her lawyer is sure to bring up in court to hopefully get a fair trial that won't be presided over by a judge playing to the media and popular opinion.

That said, once the legal process kicks in, it likely will take several years, and the odds seem very high that she will go to prison, if things actually went down as has been alleged in light of the evidence and witnesses apparently available.[/quote]

But why are you speculating?
- Paid news.
- Let's make the firm crowd happy.
- Get the upper middle class connect going.
- All while not speaking much of those who lost their life and their family.
- Even admitting to having properly read about them.
- Calling her 'crime' a 'MISTAKE'.
But let me save poor-corporate-junky to appease to my read base.

As bad as the mainstream media. Each playing to their respective galleries.
All while pulling wool over everyone's eyes about eventually law will take its own course.

NOT FAIR KIAN.
Just like not fair Barkha.
Both of you are in the same boat.
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 15:09
+4 -2
I think you've missed all the important points I'm making and are just focusing on things that piss you off.

The media is flaying Gadkar alive, and the narrative they're building up with wall to wall coverage and opinions demonising her makes it hard for her to have a fair trial.

They're picking on her because she's an easy target that's easy to demonise in a tabloid fashion by appealing to readers base prejudices and sensationalism.

They barely if ever report about any of the other drink driving death cases that happen every single night in Mumbai.

All I'm doing is pointing that out, it's just my opinion.

Why does it make you so angry?
om prakash 15 Jun 2015, 06:07
+3 -1
Dear Kiangianz,

While you are correct that not all drunk driving fatalities get this same attention you seem to be in error in saying that "it's just my opinion. Why does it make you so angry".

Have always admired your journalism and had hoped that you would understand as a journalist it is never "just your opinion" once you express it in ink to people who read you. What if Barkha Dutt, whom you and many seem to be very critical of, said the same thing about her tweet or if all the journalists who are ensuring the "wall to wall" coverage did the same.

As a member of the press you cannot shy away from your responsibility towards fair journalism by hiding behind the "it's my opinion" veil.

Your article though purportedly seeking to highlight the sensationalism and TRP centric media coverage which pervades India seems to fall into a lame defence for the lady accused, something which seems like your version of pandering to your (mostly) law firm / in house lawyer reader base.

While on one hand you snidely refer to other media houses speculating and manufacturing facts you then go ahead and present speculation about "X" under the guise of variable theories.

As a responsible journalist you should at least attempt to answer these questions which your readers are asking and not sweep it away under "it's my opinion".

Hoping for a revert.

Keep up the good work on BCI.

Regards
Scooter- 15 Jun 2015, 12:10
+0 -1
i am not a journalist but a lawyer. With my limited knowledge of journalism which I have gathered watching Newsroom, isnt a journalist, other than in an op-ed, supposed to only mention facts and not opinion. Now Kian- while this piece doesn't appear to be a news piece but is more akin to expression of views, you would be better of taking this argument to be able to defend "in my opinion".

Separately, dont necessarily agree with your piece entirely and the way that you have put it up. While she is is the perfect ensemble of what the media would like to call a 'darling killer' (of course alleged) since she fits the profile of what makes news in India, it is not one bit surprising of how the media is targeting her, making sexist judgements and assumptions and assertions. While she cannot expect any leniency either from the law or public opinion, her being a woman, lawyer, rich, audi driver, divorced, photogenic, one who likes to have fun, with men or without men, or whatever other stuff is a non issue here. Some readers are missing this import which I think you are trying to have (but appears to be slightly coloured with bias towards the victim- hence the rage here).
Notpaid 16 Jun 2015, 07:14
+1 -0
Well, if you are a lawyer then you would know that it is a lawyer's job to think about all other possibilities and see if they apply. The audience for this piece is largely lawyers of people with some legal background so it makes sense to write the above paragraph to show that the media circus around the issue is biased. At no point has Kian defended Janhavi - just pointed out that she doesn't need to be demonized pending her trial, which is a fair point.
A point being Missed 14 Jun 2015, 05:47
+6 -1
One thing no one in main stream Media seems to have picked up on is why she survived the crash and the deceased did not.

The answer probably is her car had airbags and she wore a seatbelt.

It's time the automobile industry be pressurised or the law be changed to make these standard features in all cars. Most cabs in Mumbai don't have seat belts that work.

That being said nothing justifies drunken driving.
Reader 14 Jun 2015, 05:53
+14 -2
A friend of mine commented- if she had been driving a cheaper hatchback, nobody would have given two hoots about it. Couldnt agree more.

Its not that BMWs / Audis / Mercs are more accident prone or only their drivers crazy. Drunk driving is common. Rather than addressing the legal issues and how it can be stopped, we are targeting the perpetrators specifically and subjecting them to media trials. Drunk driving is not a unique problem which is limited to India. Its the laws and the half hearted implementation which has made people believe that they can get away with drunk driving. If only laws and their implementation stricter, people would be scared to even touch their cars after drinking.

While this is Mumbai and cops still are very strict with such offences, one should come to Delhi / NCR and see how drunk driving has become a status symbol. If one wishes to take a cab after going out drinking and do the sensible thing, he / she is considered to be a "fattu".
KnoeTheTruth 17 Jun 2015, 14:14
+0 -0
Agree. If she were driving a cheap hatchback, or if she were not a lawyer,or if she were not in a high profile executive post,or if she were not a woman, she wouldn't have got so much coverage.
But then it's the rare combination of all these 'ifs' that has made this incident a perfect news for media coverage.
To cite an example, last week itself in my city a dumper truck crashed into 4 vehicles killing 6 people (including women, children). The driver ran away, so we don't know if he was drunk. The news was reported just like any other news. Nothing more, nothing less.
Sanctimonious Me 14 Jun 2015, 06:01
+12 -2
The empathy with the wrong doer is misplaced. It is hypocritical to suggest that she should be spared just because she belongs to the legal community and a large number of us relate to her rather than the victims. I do not know her personally. But she is a poor little rich girl indeed. Her irresponsibility has done permanent damage to peoples lives - and one cannot condone it. Hope it's a lesson to other so called 'normal' people.
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 15:13
+5 -2
Please tell me who's said she should be spared...

I'm pointing out that there is no balance in media coverage and public discourse, which basically damns her to hell and singles her out for being, what they portray as, a 'poor little rich girl' for doing and saying some very stupid stuff that she's very likely to pay for in accordance with law.

Save the outrage for if the justice system does NOT do its job.
KnowTheTruth 17 Jun 2015, 14:18
+1 -0
I agree, Kian.
In fact she ain't as high profile(connected) as people are making her out to be given that she'll spent 14 days in custody. Remember the khan didn't spend a single day in police custody and got bail at Rs.250 on the day of the accident itself!
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 15:23
+1 -0
[quote name="KnowTheTruth"]I agree, Kian.
In fact she ain't as high profile(connected) as people are making her out to be given that she'll spent 14 days in custody. Remember the khan didn't spend a single day in police custody and got bail at Rs.250 on the day of the accident itself![/quote]

She's just plain 'unlucky' I guess that Sallu bhai put the glare on these offences. The issue is such a hot potato now that even Lalit Modi will not be able to escape police or judicial custody if he were in Jahanvi's boots.

Had this been 5 years ago, I'm wiling to bet she'd have gotten away with a fine of Rs 100.
Speights 14 Jun 2015, 07:46
+7 -2
Will the lawyer brethren come together had it been anybody else? So sentimental about her plight? Her Sex, her age, her family, her social status?

Of course you can't be judgmental about her. Why should one? (1) Drink and Drive (2) Killing 2 people by driving. Oh no. You cant be judgmental about her.

Its alright, even salman khan did it. right? That's the standard now.
Humour 14 Jun 2015, 07:49
+2 -3
After reading the article, in my opinion, women shouldn't be allowed to drink Whiskey. At all. Khap Panchayat: Where are you?
Humour 14 Jun 2015, 15:39
+1 -0
Oh Lord... I forgot the wink at the end of that statement. Still learning drafting skills you see. :)
it cd have been your dad there 14 Jun 2015, 07:49
+0 -1
there is no perfect way to end drunk driving there is enough proof it does not need a trial by media and the best deterrent may be social censure.
poor little gadkar 14 Jun 2015, 08:17
+26 -6
She killed two people. And she, like most rich people in this country, would probably get away with it. I can so easily imagine how different the author's tone would have been if a drunken auto rickshaw driver had raped an upper class woman, someone the author could probably relate to. A crime is a crime, and there is none more heinous than murder. While the media portrayal is most certainly unfair and feeds the hate campaign, if a media trial is the only thing that may ensure that the culprit gets the punishment she deserves, so be it. Making up sad excuses for her and calling the death of the victims a stupid mistake just goes to show how opinionated the author is. A stupid mistake any of us could have made, wow. The sad fact remains that she is unhurt because she is rich enough to afford a safe car and would probably never receive the rightful punishment for the same reason whereas the the two victims are dead because they were poor and thus inside a rickety taxi and their families would never receive a just decision for the same reason. What makes all of this even worse is the fact that a website called legallyindia has published a piece like this. No wonder the hate campaigns are so popular.
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 15:18
+7 -6
If you think this country is so broken that the only thing that could secure conviction is a media with hunt in what is allegedly and open and shut drink driving case that happens every night (with men or other 'normal' people behind the wheel), then why don't you do something about it?

Supporting incidences of trial by media where it's probably not necessary, weakens the judicial system, it doesn't strengthen it.
Bombay Lawyer 14 Jun 2015, 17:17
+1 -3
Not calling for the indiscriminate killing of anyone. Do think that causing death by reckless negligence, particularly drunken driving should be something punishable by death. Unfortunately this is not the law in India.

There are many crimes under IPC and special laws that provide for death penalty. Some of them are for non-violent offences. I fail to see why at least on the books (I know rarest of rare etc) this can't be made punishable with death.
PoorLittleRichKian 15 Jun 2015, 12:41
+0 -1
Agree. She should have been in a similar rickety taxi going home on the right side of the expressway! Period. Save your sympathies and this biased opinion for Dear Diary. Here its completely misplaced.
Hold on 16 Jun 2015, 07:24
+1 -0
Did you just compare a road accident with a rape? How does that analogy even hold up? You can NOT rape without intent. And anyone who thinks that there was intent to cause an accident in this case should get his/her degree revoked.
Bombay Lawyer 14 Jun 2015, 09:45
+20 -4
She was intoxicated. It doesn't matter if her drink was spiked, she was drinking and she got behind a wheel and she was aware that she was intoxicated when she got behind a wheel. There are fleets of Taxi's parked outside Marine Plaza and Irish House. But no she took her audi. There is no mitigation here. If you are drunk and you get behind the wheel of a car there should be no mitigation.


Ideally if you knowingly get behind the wheel of a vehicle while intoxicated and you happen to kill someone, you should be punished with death.

But unfortunately we all want to cry poor little rich girl.

You disgust me Kian.
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 15:22
+13 -5
I'm afraid you disgust me a little bit too - calling indiscriminately for killing your fellow citizen on the basis of what you read in the newspapers that morning, ignoring the law, is an attitude that is not befitting of a lawyer or a human being, but of a sociopath.
Bombay Lawyer 14 Jun 2015, 17:17
+0 -3
Not calling for the indiscriminate killing of anyone. Do think that causing death by reckless negligence, particularly drunken driving should be something punishable by death. Unfortunately this is not the law in India. There are many crimes under IPC and special laws that provide for death penalty. Some of them are for non-violent offences. I fail to see why at least on the books (I know rarest of rare etc) this can't be made punishable with death.
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 19:00
+4 -1
I don't think a drunk driver should be treated in the same way, legally, as the premeditated rape, murder, torture, and other 'rarest of rare' cases.

The reason that law sees 'drink driving' killing as a 'lesser' evil, is because the requisite mens rea (guilty mind) is of a different quality.

There is usually no intent to kill someone by a drunk driver getting behind the wheel, but what it amounts to is easily gross negligence or utter recklessness, which under the law are seen as less guilty states of mind.

However, I agree that penalties for drink driving and enforcement of these should be harsher.

That said, the death penalty is very ineffective and will end up executing innocents, who are disproportionately poor and can not get effective legal representation.

Even the hang-em-high USA is moving in the other direction: http://www.legallyindia.com/Bar-Bench-Litigation/right-wing-nebraska-becomes-19th-us-state-to-abolish-death-penalty
Bombay Lawyer 15 Jun 2015, 14:50
+1 -1
Kian, say I have a tiger. Let's call him Ballu. If I release my tiger into a school playground can you say that I had no intent to kill anyone?

It's the same when you are intoxicated and behind the wheel of a car. If you are intoxicated and you get behind the wheel of a vehicle, intent is immaterial. The crime is the negligence. You know that you are intoxicated. You know that you are likely to cause injury or death by driving. There is no need to worry about specific intent to kill. That level of negligence alone should warrant a sentence of death or at least imprisonment for life or exiled to a penal colony (We need to bring this back) The law needs to be amended.

We need to amend the law. It cannot be that she walks with 3 years after killing two people. This cannot and should not be the case.
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 16:38
+4 -0
Yeah, somehow it doesn't quite sound like the same thing - what you describe is murder, just like shooting a loaded gun into a playground without aiming would be, if you killed a child.

Maybe the following is a better tiger analogy: Let's say you were really drunk, and went for a walk with Ballu on a leash, which you sometimes do although you know Ballu is a dangerous animal. Then, because you're so drunk, you stumble and fall and let go of Ballu's leash near a playground where Ballu eats 2 kids.

You didn't intend for Ballu to eat those two kids, but you were reckless in your handling of a dangerous animal. In a similar way, a person who drinks and drives is reckless in their handling of a dangerous machine and should be punished.

I think I disagree with you about penal colonies also. One point of imprisonment is pure and simple punishment and retribution, eye-for-an-eye type thing.

But there is also the idea that punishment under law should be to reform and to prevent someone to reoffend, not to take a potentially productive member of society out of society forever, unless they are so beyond repair that it's best to lock them up and throw away the key.

Unlike psychopath murderers, the law would argue that a drunk driver can be reformed and become a productive member of society after their jail sentence without posing a risk to anyone, having hopefully learnt their lesson (and hopefully lost their driving licence permanently).
Kanji 16 Jun 2015, 18:29
+0 -0
Arre, I didn't expect the rise of the Logical Kian. Sahi ja rahe ho boss!
Bombay Lawyer 15 Jun 2015, 14:52
+4 -0
I'll be honest. I'm privy to most of the snobbery at the bar. Had the situation been reversed. If a drunk Taxi driver had killed two advocates. Then you'd have 3 PIL's on board the coming Monday morning, along with a solidarity meeting and a bar strike to protest police inaction for drunk driving.

But unfortunately, the victims are poor. It seems that not only do the poor have trouble finding a lawyer, they have trouble even finding sympathy at the bar.
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 16:43
+2 -0
I agree, and personally I think it is disgusting that lawyers go on strike or riot whenever a mishap or crime affects one of their own...

A similar phenomenon is happening though in demonising Gadkar or people like her. We're creating an us versus them mentality.

In this case, tabloid readers say: I don't drink drive, I and my family are good persons who don't go out drinking during the week without a driver or taxi, UNLIKE that silly rich girl with a nice car who drinks too much (for a woman), is unmarried and is a maniac murderer.

By making her different from us, in our minds and with our rhetoric, she becomes an 'other' and it becomes easier to condemn her and to feel good about ourselves in the process, because we are NOT like her.
Bombay Lawyer 14 Jun 2015, 09:49
+9 -5
Stop calling it a "mistake". You are an OFFICER of the court. You take intoxicating beverages and that is fine. No one at the Bar is going to pass judgement on you for that. But as an OFFICER, after you know you've had intoxicating beverages, if you get behind the wheel of a vehicle, I am sorry there is no excuse. If you knew you were going to drink, you should have left your car at home.

This is not a mistake its negligence that killed 2 people. She deserves more than 10 years in Jail. Unfortunately under 302 the max she an get is 10 years. I hope to God she gets the full 10 years of which some are spent in solitary confinement.
Guest 14 Jun 2015, 14:44
+7 -6
Stop passing judgment you half wit. That is not your job. Let the justice delivery system do its job. This is exactly the point Kian is trying to make in the article. I worry for your clients. People like you are EXACTLY what is wrong with the legal profession in India.
What Justice Delivery System? 14 Jun 2015, 17:18
+2 -2
Can anyone here at the Bar swear an Affidavit saying we have a working justice delivery system, without perjuring himself? We know it's broken beyond repair. It's time to stop hiding behind that facade and call a spade a spade.
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 18:53
+4 -0
I think we can all agree on that, the justice delivery system is deeply broken.

So what have recent governments done to fix this, other than messing about with things like the NJAC in what seems to be a political power game?

Only radical measures of reform of trial and lower courts, tackling of pendency, pay of judges, policing, improvement in legal education, regulation of lawyers (via the BCI) can achieve anything here.

However, all the law ministries that I can remember have been lame ducks for as long as I can remember without any political will to do anything on this.
What Justice Delivery System? 14 Jun 2015, 19:20
+0 -1
Which is the point. We cannot hide behind a system that we know doesn't work while making our moral judgements. In the absence of a working system, people should be free to make the judgements they choose. At least in terms of being angry about things.
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 19:34
+7 -0
Agree, but the system is also the best option that we have, despite its flaws.

And having even a flawed rule of law is a damn sight better in my book than a system based around the righteous anger of those who have a voice (a few journalists, newspapers, blogs and a few rich people) or around angry mob rule, which could have also materialised after Gadkar's accident to lynch her, if it had happened on a different road perhaps...

Furthermore, the media is a beast that can't necessarily be trusted either all the time, and it's motives aren't necessarily aligned to yours or other citizens' either (though I would trust many journalists more than most politicians and perhaps also a few judges, but then again I'm maybe biased on that front).

And while you and others do have the democratic right to be angry, at the same time I and others also have the right to criticise such anger and point out its dangers.
KnowTheTruth 17 Jun 2015, 14:35
+1 -0
I am no lawyer, but haven't heard of anyone in the country having got a 10 yr sentence for drink driving and killing people under the wheels. (leave aside the cadre of salman and alistair periera).
I think there's a lot of pent-up frustration among the public that is being directed at this lady. Part of the frustration is due to an ineffective judicial and law enforcement system, and partly from the way our megastar got 'bail'ed out in minutes.
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 15:32
+0 -0
[quote name="KnowTheTruth"]I am no lawyer, but haven't heard of anyone in the country having got a 10 yr sentence for drink driving and killing people under the wheels. (leave aside the cadre of salman and alistair periera).
I think there's a lot of pent-up frustration among the public that is being directed at this lady. Part of the frustration is due to an ineffective judicial and law enforcement system, and partly from the way our megastar got 'bail'ed out in minutes.[/quote]

You're right that there is a lot of pent up frustration in the public.

I get frustrated every time a drunk psycho swerves dangerously past at 10 pm when I drive back home with my wife and kid after a movie on a Saturday night. I'm frustrated that these people know that they can get away with it 99% of the time with no trouble. I'm frustrated that generations of Indians treat it as a minor transgression, much like the misogynistic attitude towards sexual harassment (which is also treated by many older Indians as a small mischief).

The fact that for decades DUI has been treated with kid gloves is no entitlement to Jahanvi Gadkar to get away with 10 hours of community service. Now is a good time for the courts to send a strong message that DUI is just as bad as killing someone in a moment of anger. To the victim and their family the effect is the same.

I am also a lawyer like Jahanvi, I also meet my clients at 10 pm to chat and bond and I also like a drink with my friends. The difference is that I am responsible enough to stay away from a steering wheel no matter how little I've drunk.
Guest 14 Jun 2015, 10:13
+0 -0
Kian which college did she go to?
Annon 14 Jun 2015, 10:36
+0 -0
GLC.
Baba 14 Jun 2015, 12:32
+3 -1
GLC people are very cool.
KnowTheTruth 17 Jun 2015, 14:45
+0 -0
Gadkar graduated from the University of Warwick in England 2004 in international economic law.
Her father worked in Unity projects and mother in BEST. They lived in Ghatkopar until they moved to Kandivli.
She was married in 2003 and separated in 2010.

(I was surprised at the kind of details some newspapers pull out)
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 16:14
+2 -1
[quote name="KnowTheTruth"]Gadkar graduated from the University of Warwick in England 2004 in international economic law.
Her father worked in Unity projects and mother in BEST. They lived in Ghatkopar until they moved to Kandivli.
She was married in 2003 and separated in 2010.

(I was surprised at the kind of details some newspapers pull out)[/quote]

So how exactly does this affect the fact that:

(a) she was drinking and driving in full contravention of the law.

(b) she killed couple of people who would not even have known she existed before her car struck theirs.

Her parents could have been Aung Sang Suu Kyi and Ban Ki Moon and even then she'd be a criminal deserving of a decade or more in Davy Jones' Locker
KnowTheTruth 17 Jun 2015, 18:51
+1 -0
I only answered another "Guest" question ,
which some additional details that our media grabbed.
vantage 14 Jun 2015, 11:12
+8 -0
This girl drove on the WRONG side of the freeway, you gotto be really out of your mind to be doing that! Alcohol makes people do stupid things & also makes them overconfident & i guess this case is a prime example.

Btw, she isn't super rich as has been made out! She seems to be 'work hard,party hard' type of a girl.

[u]Bottomline[/u]: One act of stupidity can ruin a lifetime!
Liar 14 Jun 2015, 14:37
+1 -1
Poor little girl initially lied to the police that she was waiting in her car at Marine Drive for 2 or 3 hours. Poor Alok Agarwal did not bother to voluntarily inform the police that she was lying and that she had a second drinking session with him immediately before the tragedy. Thanks to the good Samaritan who saw them at the pub and bothered to inform the police
Silent Observer 14 Jun 2015, 18:17
+6 -4
Kian,

Thank God you penned this down. At least one person with me..
Anon 14 Jun 2015, 19:08
+1 -0
I am just wondering whether part of the problem with Kian's essay is that he chose Legally India as the platform which essentially caters to the lawyer community. That's perhaps why some people raise doubts on Kian's motives. Maybe it would have been better if Kian chose a platform other than Legally India - like Times of India or even Mint.
kianganz 14 Jun 2015, 19:26
+4 -1
I think people would have been even more scathing on an MSM platform, and some would have probably called for me being hung...

Of course I wrote this article in-part because Gadkar is a lawyer and the case is of big interest and a topic of discussion amongst LI readers, and because it concerns the judicial system.

But other than that, was genuinely shocked and saddened at the tone of coverage and the hostile, often gleeful and borderline-sexist reactions that a 'spoilt rich girl' is getting her just desserts, and wanted to share my heartfelt view.
AS 14 Jun 2015, 19:12
+0 -1
The fact is that Ms. Gadkar messed up bigtime. Maybe the media coverage is disproportionate or even chauvinistic, but how else do you raise important issues such as the risks associated with drunk driving? In my view, even though in law,Janhavi may be equally placed as an uneducated cabbie who is caught driving drunk, but morally, being educated and blessed in many ways, Janhavi ought to be have showed greater regard for the law and fellow citizens than an uneducated taxi driver. Isn't education supposed to make you a better human being and a considerate citizen? IMO, that's what the media is trying to highlight. There may be slip ups here and there, but she deserves every bit of the pounding that she is getting.

Kianz, even though your point is well taken, you have chosen a topic which is extremely controversial. I see a contradiction in the article. While you are (in some ways)sympathetic to Gadkar, you simultaneously suggest that law ought to take its course. This issue is like America's war on terror, you are either with them, or against them!
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 06:50
+6 -0
Your America's 'war on terror' argument (which has been widely criticised also in the US) the 'either with us or against us' rhetoric is logically flawed and dangerous in a democracy, as it eliminates nuance.

I can condemn what Gadkar did, blame her personally for being irresponsible, stupid or reckless, yet at the same time feel sympathy for her as a person, yet call for the law to punish her, yet also blame police corruption or road safety laws, yet also insist on a fair trial.

[b]Just focusing on her personally is a lazy option, that insists on a world of black and white, good vs evil, which is so simplistic it is dangerous and will not ever improve things.[/b]

It's easily possible to cover such issues without demonisation. And interestingly, very little of the coverage so far has been suggesting solutions - it's all just, this girl is spoilt, stupid and rich, let's punish her as hard as possible.

Such rhetoric makes people feel good about themselves momentarily, but does little to actually fix underlying causes. One better approach would be to report on *every* drink driving case prominently, and not just those featuring good looking young women who are lawyers... Another would be campaigns for better car safety laws and against police corruption, but I don't see much of that either...
Lawforall 14 Jun 2015, 23:44
+2 -1
Fact is,in this Sweet country of ours Justice seems to happen ONLY with media noise - plenty of examples one can cite. so, the media, IMHO, should relentlessly be on to this case till the very end.

Yes the fact that she is a lawyer, photogenic and rich should not add or subtract from justice delivery. In an ideal world it won't. But here where most - including those who are supposedly the protectors of law - v. easily turn a blind eye, the responsibility on the media is all the more.

BD's comments are uncalled for. But they make good copy. In turn, so does your article - both target views and engagements. And as long as they both serve to deliver exemplary Justice that is fine. Remember that exemplary Justice delivered and so seen can be the strongest message to send. One reason why crime in Saudi is much lesser.
Whats in a name 15 Jun 2015, 02:39
+2 -1
Firstly,i feel we should stop speculating about the lady's attitude anymore , primarily coz her actions speak louder than anything else. There's a basic lack of concern for her own life or for others to start with. Iam not referring to any articles that described in the detail about the no of pegs she had coz in my opinion its irrelevant. 2 pegs or 6 pegs , drunk, she definitely was. The matter ends there.
Speaking of demonizing or publicly shaming people instead of fixing laws. Most of this,in my opinion is done, by the common man to whom justice is delayed / denied. Demonizing if u ask me is the common man's way of serving justice in case of a person who is spared (temporarily or permanently) by weak courts.
Yes media makes a spectacle out of all this only to conveniently forget later. But the next time an issue of drunken driving crops up , jahanvi's name will be added the "Salman Khan" list for sure, just as Salman's noble deed is being fondly recalled today when jahanvi's case has been bradcasted.
There's no denying that fixing up the judicial system is going to take some time and even more time is required to drill the significance of laws into wayward citizens' heads. Until then public shaming is the only vehicle / weapon that the average law abiding citizen has in order to make the law disrespecting lot come to their knees.
gogo 15 Jun 2015, 02:59
+1 -1
dear kian

i read your article and i am an avid reader of legally india. i agree with a lot of the issues you have raised. yes there is an outrage industry in india. and yes this lady is being sacrificed at its altar.

inida is an incredibly hupocritical place where everybody wishes to demonstrate the superirority of their own value system by attacking somebody else. the llaccused lady is not some ambani or some birla. she was not friving a ferarri. she was driving a basic low end audi. i see newrly a hundred of those each day. she by no stretch of imagination can be considered rich. yet because she represents a cocktail of a woman who is single, a professional, drinks and drives a flashy car , she represents the stereotypical "modern woman" who is always bashed. she is an easy target for mindless bashing. yes nothing can forgibe what she did, but the way she is being pilloried at the post by the high and mighty is disgusting.

kian i do have a bone to pick with you though. while i agree with this article, you have ignored some other articles which represent the way in which the law and media treat different accused differently. take for example

1- salmans bail. a purchased order if there ever was one. salve was there for window dressing so that the judge had an excuse to tell people that he gave the bail because of salve.

2- jayalalithas bail by dattu. and followed by her acquittal by the state court. the bail order given to her by the cji was absolutely cringe inducing to see with nariman being there for window dressing.

3- the arrest of tomar by the dlehi police. obv his degree is fake, i personally think kejriwal is a loony and tomar should be sacked . but his arrest and the manner of the arrest was just terrible.

4- the pervasive and indepth corruption in the judiciary.


my only suggestion is that you do an article on one of these issues as well.
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 17:02
+0 -0
Would love to, but there are only so many hours in the day to do articles...

on 1. It's hard to tell what's going on. I don't think an order was purchased, but I think that this article we commissioned (but it seems forgot to post on LI) sort of gets it right:
http://www.livemint.com/Consumer/xLojbGhFIyu6aevhfcatCM/Legally-explained-What-why-and-how-the-Supreme-Court-decid.html

2. These are such big and complex and political cases I don't know where I would start. It's easy making allegations about them, but they can also be explained through smart litigation strategy. Again, I don't know enough about the ins and outs to really give an informed comment there right now.

3. Hmm, Tomar seems to me a matter of: the police hates the AAP and was only too happy to pay them back, so they spent far more time on this case (perhaps nudged by the central government a little) than they would have done if Tomar was not of AAP. That said, their reasons for refusing bail don't seem unreasonable - maybe he would start (allegedly) tampering with more documents if he's out?

4. Well, where do you start on that mammoth topic (without getting arrested)? :)
Guest 15 Jun 2015, 03:57
+2 -3
Behind every persons crime..there may be protean reasons and factors..and a complex interplay of emotional states. .that does not absolve one of any crime.and the fact that many Indians commit the same mistake everyday doesnt either..I feel there is a flawed reasoning here..
Neil 15 Jun 2015, 04:06
+6 -1
Hi Kian,

Your article is generally well written- however mentioning that "the media is demonising this lady who has allegedly made one very big mistake that she is certain to regret for the rest of her life", made me cringe with disbelief.

I strongly differ : going by reports, this lady has had several drunken hit & runs over the past few weeks- don't you think this is habit (and not circumstance) and a total disregard of the law & humanity? Everytime, she has gotten away by flashing money and playing the card of the fairer sex. Are we sure she has not maimed or killed someone before?

Most of the so-called media witch-hunts that you so elaborately dissect- epitomize this repetitive behaviour, reckless nature, blatant disregard of others lives and the belief that money can erase any crime or accident? Please- she is no victim !

Regards
Neil
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 07:05
+2 -1
I think the perpetrators of drink driving need help rather than condemnation.

Usually it is not some deep-seated evil that makes drunk drivers kill, but it is recklessness, or even underlying causes such as alcoholism, or simply stupidity.

Perhaps it'd be better to describe it as a psychological problem rather than just plain stupidity, you're right.

Most drink drivers are repeat offenders and don't kill someone the first time they do it. They do it once, maybe after only 1 or 2 drinks, and don't have an accident or just a minor scrape, and think, well, that wasn't a problem, why do people make such a fuss about drink driving?

"I am different," they think, "I can handle my booze and I'm a great driver."

And so people increasingly get used to driving and drinking, and 100 times they might not have an accident, and they drink more and more, until one day they've drunk so much they're incapable that this happens.

Drunk driving needs education to eradicate, and not demonisation, which only works on a very simplistic level.
om prakash 15 Jun 2015, 08:24
+4 -1
Is this really a reply from you, Kian or is it BCI Mishra who is posting such replies after hacking our account.

Kian this reply of yours smacks of servitude and unashamed attempt to protect the poor rich girl. Fancy words you are using to hide her crime. You have called it a mistake and now she was just "reckless". everything but an accused.

Makes me wonder how well you know the lady accused and to what lengths you will go to preach her case.

I am sure she had not reached where she had without "education". There is enough education, on TV, in print and various other media against drunk driving. Perhaps when all else fails we need demonisation to make an example of some people to create a deterrent for others.
Neil 15 Jun 2015, 16:10
+0 -1
A question to my Lawyer brothers and sisters -Don't landmark judgements award exemplary or out of proportion sentences to the usual offences to serve as deterrent/ references to future mishaps?

If those poor victims were unlucky to be on the wrong place at the wrong time and met death; maybe this lady was at the wrong place and wrong time as well and her actions result in a landmark judgement !
Guest 15 Jun 2015, 04:40
+3 -0
Well said. Finally came across someone who has a non bias and rational perspective to this much hyped case. I really wish to see a media that is more matured, intellectual and objective. Agitation is good for a social change but should be left for activist. Media is a medium to deliver the truth as it is and not sensationalize it, this again can be left for filmmakers.
Mr. Tambourine Man 15 Jun 2015, 04:48
+3 -1
Kian - This is a well thought out and rational piece. I enjoyed reading it. It is indeed refreshing to read an article with such a rational and objective perspective without really condoning the incident. Hope you write a few more pieces like these in the future. Cheers!
Dinesh 15 Jun 2015, 05:12
+2 -3
Put this writer in jail
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 07:06
+1 -0
That's nice - I think it's obvious what kind of country Dinesh would like to be living in :)
om prakash 15 Jun 2015, 08:25
+0 -0
Which Writer.... so many people commenting....
Worked along side her 15 Jun 2015, 05:44
+3 -1
Case against Janhavi even if there are people who prefer the more lenient view:

1) She is a habitual offender. She had hit people a week back from what I hear. This incident was insufficient to make the 'wonderful' lady more mature to know when to stop / clean up her act.
2) I am not casting aspersions on her - but [...].
3) She appears to have lied to the police mentioning she was trying to wear off her alcohol post leaving Marine Plaza. She actually went to Irish Pub and drank some more. She not only has committed a perjury but also exposed her friend to commit it i.e. the friend who accompanied her to Marine Plaza.

Please note that being a wonderful person and being successful does not for a single moment make her any less culpable than what she is when you read the above. And for all us lawyers, please refer justice is blind.
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 07:10
+1 -0
I agree, culpability is obviously there and I never said it wasn't.

But is the media witch hunt and digging out of half-baked facts necessary or helpful?

The Mirror wrote that she'd had 180ml of whiskey, whereas later reports suggest that she allegedly imbibed the majority of alcohol afterwards via drinking beer at another pub.

Does this hysteria of falling over each other trying to break new details and 'facts' of her drunken night out help anyone other than newspaper proprietors?

In respect of her 'lies to the police', we don't know why she lied, what state she was in, or if all of us would have done differently if we were as drunk as she allegedly was and in that exact position.

She might deserve it, but let's face it, in a scary situation such as being arrested, people often say the wrong things, even if they are trained lawyers.
KnowTheTruth 17 Jun 2015, 15:00
+0 -0
She probably said things she wouldn't have if she were guided by a criminal lawyer. She could've easily started off saying she wasn't at the wheel and got out of the car from driver side as passenger door wouldn't open. That itself could have saved her for the next 12 years. She could have said she was being chased by hooligans trying to rape her for which she drove frantically.
Guest 15 Jun 2015, 06:18
+5 -0
Happy that this opinion has been written and published. TO CLARIFY I KNOW GADKAR BUT AM NOT FOR ONCE SAYING THAT SHE SHOULD NOT FACE THE LEGAL CONSEQUENCES OF HER ACTION. I ALSO BELIEVE THAT WHATEVER MAY BE THE DECISION FROM THE COURT, HER PROFESSIONAL AS WELL PERSONAL LIFE WOULD NOT BE THE SAME EVER AGAIN. IF I MAY SAY IT HAS BEEN RUINED AND BY NO ONE ELSE BUT HERSELF.

But would completely agree with Kian. We as a society get carried away with emotions and do not think reasonably to prevent such accidents and its consequences from happening in future.
Why has this case got so much of publicity - it has all classic ingredients to attract public attention and TRPs - offender is a girl, drunk, in audi, escapes injury, executive with big corporate house, making good money. on the other hand victims have died and been seriously injured, are from middle class or lower middle class background, returning from a family celebration. These are enough for media to chase the story with vengeance including carry it on headlines.

What surprised me is that accidents and death on account of drunken driving is not uncommon in India. So what is so different in this case to merit so much of attention. There was another incident of drunken driving where the drunk businessman caused death of a lady and her child in Ahmadabad 2-3 days after Gadhkar accident. This news was reported, but did not merit the same news coverage and was definitely not worthy of a headline or such heated debate. You just have to google and you will find innumerable stories of drunken driving accidental deaths caused by truck drivers and bus drivers and taxi drivers. But none of these accidents merit news coverage.

Media should report such cases but after reporting facts,a responsible media should have taken up the various reasons why the statistics in drunken driving accidents are increasing and what the authorities/ police/ judiciary are doing to prevent/ reduce it. Instead there is stereotyping of Gadhkar and women in general. Add to that the reports of how women cannot handle whiskey. Is it fine if men drink whiskey and drive. God forbid if any accidents are ensued then, it is fine as it is a man who was drunk and driving.

Sincerely wish that all this energy is focussed to think up measures to reduce such unfortunate accidents, while allowing law to take its course in deciding the Gadhkar case. Let us not punish Gadhkar but be more positive in our efforts to ensure such accidents do not happen in future.
Guest 15 Jun 2015, 06:19
+0 -4
Get yourself mentally checked up!Please stop writing stupid articles.
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 07:11
+4 -0
Wow, so much anger and so little reading and engaging with the actual article taking place here :)
Guest 15 Jun 2015, 06:21
+0 -1
You said that - "She wouldn’t be the first or the last to have made a big mistake while drunk, and she wouldn’t by any means be the only one where such a mistake has cost lives."

I say that if this is the case then she wouldn't be the first or the last to have been condemned like this. If the accident/ incident in the course of life journey then the accusation is part of it. Accept both. In fact accident, accusation, defence all will go together you do your part of defence let other do their part of accusation. Don't muzzle.
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 07:13
+1 -0
She's not the first but she's in a definite minority.

If 100,000 drink driving deaths take place every year, there should be at least 100 articles every day about another drink driving death in the paper, with an equal amount of attention and condemnation.

They're not - most are ignored because they're so routine and the perpetrators are people most readers don't care about: this one is covered because people want to read about it and it is easy and feels 'just' to demonise a 'spoilt little rich girl'.
Guest 15 Jun 2015, 06:25
+0 -2
Kian, accident, accusation, defence. Accept everything. Don't be partial and muzzle accusation.
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 07:14
+2 -0
No muzzling taking place, but completely unnecessary is the hysteria and hyperbole about women drinking whiskey for fun, how evil she is, etc.
Ramnaresh Sarwan 15 Jun 2015, 06:33
+8 -2
Have been an avid reader of Legally India for sometime now.This article, I am afraid, has made me lose a lot of respect for LI. It is no better than the media trial/outrage being carried out against Ms. Gadkar by various tabloids in the country and which you have perhaps justifiably bashed in your piece.
What’s my point? The following : (1) When you drink (and heavily at that), you should know the consequences of it (as any mature adult would know). (2)Knowing the consequences and still getting behind the wheel to drive is akin to firing a pistol in a crowded mall and hoping that you won’t kill anyone. (3) RULES ARE RULES. Driving under the influence of alcohol is prohibited. She broke the law. Let her be punished as per the law of the land. There are no excuses for breaking the law – certainly the ones that you offer in your article are puerile at best and dangerous at worst. (4) Trial by media is an overhyped issue. Yes orders can be purchased in our country, but that is corruption. I find it difficult to believe that an experienced judge will fall prey to what is being claimed/asserted in tabloids – such a person is not fit to be a judge at all. If a judge does not go by evidence but by what is written in newspapers, that order is surely bad in law and liable to be struck down at the appeal stage.
The last portion of your article is well taken – that the real issues of enforcement/policing/judiciary will be glossed over. However, any attempt to find excuses for Ms. Gadkar’s conduct should be firmly denounced irrespective of whether she is rich or poor, man or woman. I don’t want anyone to call her an “untermensch”, but I wish we had even half as much respect for rules as the country that gave us that word.
You are entitled to your opinion and I (and a lot of others it seems) am entitled to vehemently oppose that opinion.
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 07:18
+1 -4
I take your points, but I think there's a minor misreading.

I did not seek to find excuses for [b]her[/b] - I said that in any criminal case, there will be extenuating circumstances and a story that's not being told, i.e., that of the defendant.

There are thousands of theoretical reasons that could change the narrative of all this slightly.

Drink driving is about 'should' and 'could haves'. It is deeply irresponsible and reckless, which is why it's punished by jail time, but people don't begin drink driving because they are psychopaths. It just becomes like a really bad and dangerous and stupid habit to them...
Guest 15 Jun 2015, 06:43
+4 -9
Superb suckup article....I really hope that all those people supporting the salmans and janhavis loose a family member in such accidents and then see how they make there comments on gender bias and stupid mistakes... please use some rationale thinking and get out of the mode or debate....people have lost their lives...may be the whole family would have been dependent on then. ..and now what....
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 07:19
+3 -1
You are espousing "rational thinking" yet hope that people lose a family member so they can think more rationally about the issue?
JJ 15 Jun 2015, 06:51
+3 -3
So the whole universe may be responsible but her? WOW. what an idiotic write up.
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 07:19
+2 -0
That's not what the article said, maybe you want to read it again, slowly this time?
WTF 15 Jun 2015, 06:53
+1 -1
Wonder if the tone and tenor of the (otherwise excellently written) piece would change if Kian acknowledged the fact that there are reports of her being a habitual offender! The entire piece hinges on the point that it was a stupid mistake which many including the Bhai's of the world do but get away with so why make an example out of this one - what if the basis of 'a stupid mistake' were to change? What if it was proved that she was indeed a habitual offender? Would you still write this article, Kian? Just asking...
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 07:28
+2 -1
I think most drink driving is a habitual offence.

In the US, "one-third of the drunk driving problem – arrests, crashes, deaths, and injuries – comes from repeat offenders".
http://www.madd.org/drunk-driving/about/

You (and the victims) have to be extremely 'unlucky', statistically, if the first time you drink anything over the limit you immediately cause a deadly accident.

It's a slippery slope - you drink drive for the first 10 times on one peg, then you gradually get confident and drink drive 10 times on 2 pegs of whiskey, at which your reaction time is maybe 10% slowed.

Then you drive 10 times on 3 pegs, at which you maybe feel quite drunk but can just about justify to yourself that 'You've done this before', and probably won't have an accident yet.

Then, sooner or later comes the 'unlucky' tipping point or the 'one final mistake' that changes your and your victim's lives forever: You drive while blind drunk after 10 pegs, either because you have no self control at all or because something deep inside you tells you, 'I've done this before', it's ok. Then you crash by your own blind drunkenness or because something happens on the road that you can't react to in time.

Are you to blame for such behaviour? Yes. Should you be criticised for it? Yes.

But asking for you to be locked up with the key thrown away doesn't solve any of the underlying problems.

Drink driving needs to nipped in the bud by effective policing, mandatory counselling or medical treatment for alcoholism, and heavy fines and even jail terms, even on a first offence, so that it doesn't become a habit for people.

Once it is a habit, it's probably too late...
Guest 15 Jun 2015, 07:03
+2 -1
Lets admit it that it was a mistake and can be inferred from the circumstances that it was unintentional too. There is no requirement of such so called "hi profile people" bashing. It could have been any body in place of her. Sad to see reactions like this from educated people.
om prakash 15 Jun 2015, 08:26
+0 -1
Yes dear educated people drink and drive and kill and sao sorry for "Mistake"

Its a crime not a mistake.
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 08:32
+1 -0
A lot of mistakes and recklessness as to your actions can be criminal.

Education unfortunately does not prevent people from doing stupid things or making such mistakes...
Dinesh 15 Jun 2015, 08:50
+0 -1
Kian, Im shocked you are comparing laws in the US, have you even been there?a place where citizens are scared of the law, you are out ere justifying a drunk driver action as a MISTAKE, we all no it was unintentional but drinking and driving accounts as good as being a suicide bomber, out to destroy. Salman is a killer and he is out playing cricket, next what , give him a Bharat ratna?
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 09:00
+2 -2
Well no Dinesh, actually drinking and driving is very different from being a suicide bomber.

One is a person drinking and driving, knowing there is a much increased chance that they will kill someone in an accident.

The other is a terrorist who goes out of their house looking to kill themselves and as many people as possible.

What do you think about texting and driving or speaking on the phone while driving? Should they be hanged by the neck too until death, if they kill someone in an accident?
Robin 15 Jun 2015, 16:36
+1 -0
Yeah Kian, Now these people will start justifying them because they usually do it while driving. This is very big question for those who are criticizing the article for being in the favor of the drunk lawyer.

There are millions of people in Delhi who talk over the phone while driving and when they meet with any accident in due to their carelessness, how should they be treated? Should they be hanged till death. I am asking this question to all those who talk over the phone while driving. Here, one more question arises, if suppose any such accident take place by these common people, does media create hype of any such incident. Definitely, NO!!

The crux of Kian's story is that Kian's does understand that the incident was obviously unfortunate, and two innocent people died due to negligence of a drunk person. But at the same time Kian wants to draw your attention on on one very basic issue which is very common in all the metropolitan cites like Delhi and Mumbai where people use to talk over the phone while driving or even they do not wear seat belts. If these people sometime meet with the same incident how should they be treated by Media?

Of Course, there is law and it is the duty of the court to decide what went wrong and what punishment should be given to the guilty to meet with the justice.
Nachiket 15 Jun 2015, 17:22
+0 -2
Kian,

You compare Texting and Drink and Drive...do you know why Drink and Drive is punishable...after drinking and that too excessive you lose your control and ability to Judge situation...does that happen by texting...I am not sure you are ignorant or wishful.....but I guess some "Class"ification is going on to save drunken people.....
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 17:35
+3 -0
You might want to do a little bit of research before making up facts or assuming things:

[quote][b]Is Texting While Driving More Dangerous Than Drunk Driving? The answer is yes.[/b] By a long-shot. Driving a vehicle while texting is six times more dangerous than driving while intoxicated, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.[/quote]

http://distracteddriveraccidents.com/texting-driving-dangerous-drunk-driving/
Nachiket 17 Jun 2015, 15:49
+0 -0
I think WIKI is not a good resource for any assumptions/facts ....whats the maximum punishment for Texting and Driving and Drinking and Driving......you will get your answer.....NHTSA website did publish that data or a blogger did?....anyways......Drinking has some biological effects on Body which lead to loss of motor controls....nothing of this sort happens in Texting also it is for short time....i am not advocating for the Texting while driving.....my only point is it is definitely much less harmful than wishful drink and drive
Guest 15 Jun 2015, 09:24
+1 -1
Proper rules and regulations are there also in India,but the major problem is that they are not applicable to the rich class.
ekummm 15 Jun 2015, 11:52
+2 -5
because of people like you who write this article, you didnt even mentioned a word for families that lost everything...you are sick...ill prey you should die along with that lawyer asap
DD 15 Jun 2015, 12:34
+1 -1
Good piece, Kian. But the only good thing of media covering the accident excessively (only the accident, not the useless info that she is a divorced rich Audi-driving lawyer) is that it might create a sort of fear in the minds of people. Like if it can happen to her, then why not me. So a rational person would take appropriate measures to ensure safety while drunk and trying to drive.
KnowTheTruth 17 Jun 2015, 15:13
+0 -0
and what when the defence uses the same details to get a lenient term? (...she was single/separated, living alone and under lot of stress, and suffering chronic depression, etc)
Citizen of india 15 Jun 2015, 12:55
+1 -1
Well written article. It is rightly said SACH KADVA HOTA HAI....
Human being 15 Jun 2015, 12:59
+1 -0
excellent article......read think....read think.....
Nachiket 15 Jun 2015, 17:15
+1 -2
Kian,

You haven't met the accused and I assume you haven't the victims either....still your heart weeps so deeply for that drunkard and not for victim.....I am just wondering what may be the reason......now in Modern society we presume we don't differentiate
on Caste or Color....but it seems some of us do On "Class".....am I wrong here my "Human" friend?
kianganz 15 Jun 2015, 17:32
+5 -0
My 'heart' weeps even more deeply for the victims, but that's been written about by everyone already and should go without saying, so what's the point in me writing another column about it?

When a lawyer in Mumbai was murdered by her building's watchman, tragic as it was, I didn't write a long column about that either, as the mainstream media is perfectly capable of doing it for LI to do so:
http://www.legallyindia.com/News/2012-mumbai-lawyer-murder-convict-gets-life-sentence

The overwhelming media narrative in this case has been about demonising Gadkar.

I wrote a criticism of that narrative, in a bid to inject a bid of reason and balance into the debate rather than the hang-her-high attitude that seems to be prevailing.
Nachiket 17 Jun 2015, 16:14
+0 -0
Just for the sake of balanced Debate!!!! Sir....2 innocent people are murdered by a drunken lady......priority here would be a well "just" case rather than balanced debate....I sense another "DABANG" case here by the High Hippos of the Mumabai society......
vineshchandra chhotai 15 Jun 2015, 22:56
+0 -0
JSK????????????hariaum
Reader 16 Jun 2015, 02:58
+1 -1
#tldr

So you say media should not cover the case until the courts verdict is out as this may contribute to witch hunt and trial by media.

What does that leave media to do then?
kianganz 16 Jun 2015, 04:30
+2 -1
Not at all, media should report but without the hysteria and headlines like 'she had whiskey for fun', etc.

But you're right, maybe that's too much to ask of our newspapers...
Cooltaurean 16 Jun 2015, 04:55
+0 -0
I like your perspective on this incident.
As usual it can be seen that media and social networking always manage to blow things out of proportion. we always seem to miss the big picture due to the low lying clouds. As you rightly mentioned this outrage will quickly be forgotten and replaced by another incident waiting to happen. All this is because of our inability to enforce existing rules. And moreover,i dont understand the need to enforce rules in the first place. shouldnt the fact that these rules exist be enough for us to refrain or have the scare of the consequences if caught driving after drinking. But no, we are well aware of our system operates and always find a way out. You can always plan an outing and not carry your car that day or you can always hire a driver for as low as 500 bucks for an unplanned sitting. but this call has to come from the concience of the individual. If he/she has no fear of the system, they will be confident that they can get away from anything and alchohol only raises your confidence levels(in the wrong way).
Seema Sapra 16 Jun 2015, 08:50
+4 -0
May I remind everyone of another car, another accident, another death and another lawyer

https://www.saddahaq.com/human-interest/harishsalve/does-the-law-apply-to-harish-salves-bentley-accident

http://www.legallyindia.com/201405144713/Bar-Bench-Litigation/man-dies-crashing-into-harish-salve-s-bentley-now-family-considers-suing-salve
Seema Sapra 16 Jun 2015, 09:43
+7 -1
I have the following to offer on the Whiskey for fun aspect.

Janhavi Gadkar was probably asked by a policeman/ policewoman why she had whiskey.

Now a person will drink whiskey for one of two reasons, either he/she is an alcoholic addicted to whiskey or he/she drinks it socially for fun.

Social drinking is for fun isn't it?

So her very innocuous statement becomes socially scandalous in the media because she is a woman and because good Indian women do not drink alcohol especially whiskey.

So the headlines become woman drinks whiskey for fun and kills two!

Since she is wealthy, young, attractive she becomes a bigger media story.

This will play itself out until another scandal comes along.

At the same time, the initial media reports tried to shield the Reliannce CFO she had drinks with, who escorted her to her car, while he took a cab himself. She was too drunk to walk on her own.
Rationalisation Hamster 17 Jun 2015, 07:27
+0 -1
Can Indian women stop playing the victim for once?
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 10:21
+1 -1
I didn't even bother responding to pointless women baiting when I was in school, and certainly don't consider it worth my time now.

You obviously don't have a real point to make apart from meaningless tu tu mein mein.
Seema Sapra 16 Jun 2015, 09:52
+3 -0
If this is Janhavi Gadkar's verbatim statement to the police at http://www.mid-day.com/articles/mumbai-drunk-driving-accident-i-had-whisky-for-fun-says-advocate/16281191

- What is glaring is that she lied about meeting up with the Reliance CFO later. Was she pressured to do so? Otherwise why would she lie about this?

Also, she admits she drove rashly, why would she do that being a lawyer.

Yes she was drunk and that was independently established. But why admit in your statement that you drove rashly?
MaximumRetailPrice 17 Jun 2015, 16:00
+0 -0
What is the definition of driving rashly?
Seema Sapra 16 Jun 2015, 10:39
+5 -2
Janhavi Gadkar has been charged with culpable homicide not amounting to murder.

I don't think a person that drunk can be charged with that as there is no way she could have had the knowledge in her condition that her drunk driving could cause death.

At the moment that she exited the pub and got into her car, she was of unsound mind being drunk and could not have known at that time that her driving in that condition would be dangerous and could cause death. So there could not have been the requisite mens rea for culpable homicide under Section 299 IPC.

She should instead have been charged for causing death by negligence under Section 304A.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/Janhavis-bail-plea-Police-mechanically-invoke-culpable-homicide-section/articleshow/47674372.cms

Therefore her having admitted to rash driving in her statement might be used against her to try and stick the charge of culpable homicide.

I think Janhavi Gadkar's culpability is much less than Salman Khan's culpability. Gadkar was too drunk to make a sound decision on her own and the Reliance CFO she was with and staff at the pub did not make the right decision in letting her drive off. She could neither stand nor walk unaided.

Salman Khan on the other hand had at least two other people in his car both of whom could have driven instead of Salman if the latter was drunk. Salman Khan was also warned by his police guard that he was driving rashly.

If you look at the comments made on the LI articles on the Salman Khan drunk driving case, some of them were awful, saying things like Bhai rocks etc.
Seema Sapra 16 Jun 2015, 11:53
+3 -0
See http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/cover-story/Hunt-for-missing-3-hours-leads-cops-to-more-drink-and-a-senior-colleague/articleshow/47649991.cms

Records she was too drunk to walk unaided and Reliance CFO escorted her to her car.
KnowTheTruth 17 Jun 2015, 15:58
+0 -0
Salman's police bodyguard Ravindra Patil did not know driving. So shall we say it was Ravindra's fault that Salman had to take up the wheel?
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 17:38
+1 -2
[quote name="Seema Sapra"]Janhavi Gadkar has been charged with culpable homicide not amounting to murder.

I don't think a person that drunk can be charged with that as there is no way she could have had the knowledge in her condition that her drunk driving could cause death.

At the moment that she exited the pub and got into her car, she was of unsound mind being drunk and could not have known at that time that her driving in that condition would be dangerous and could cause death. So there could not have been the requisite mens rea for culpable homicide under Section 299 IPC.

She should instead have been charged for causing death by negligence under Section 304A.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/Janhavis-bail-plea-Police-mechanically-invoke-culpable-homicide-section/articleshow/47674372.cms

Therefore her having admitted to rash driving in her statement might be used against her to try and stick the charge of culpable homicide.

I think Janhavi Gadkar's culpability is much less than Salman Khan's culpability. Gadkar was too drunk to make a sound decision on her own and the Reliance CFO she was with and staff at the pub did not make the right decision in letting her drive off. She could neither stand nor walk unaided.

Salman Khan on the other hand had at least two other people in his car both of whom could have driven instead of Salman if the latter was drunk. Salman Khan was also warned by his police guard that he was driving rashly.

If you look at the comments made on the LI articles on the Salman Khan drunk driving case, some of them were awful, saying things like Bhai rocks etc.[/quote]

Reading to this gibberish, I think Jahanvi was [b]totally innocent[/b] and the police must not only release her ASAP but must also give her a [b]written apology[/b].

Instead let's arrest and prosecute each of the following for culpable homicide and lock them away for a decade

Roll-call of accused
====================
#1 Board members + CEO of Audi A.G. for making cars that can deal such crushing blows when colliding head-on

#2 Board members + CEO of Maruti Suzuki for making a weak car like the EECO taxi that cannot protect it's occupants from a head on collision with an Audi at 120 kmph

#3 Reliance CFO (for obvious reasons)

#4 Reliance CEO (for letting the CFO have drinks during a business meeting at night)

#5 Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation for making such a good road that a car can do 120 kmph

#6 Mumbai Police for not putting up a nakabandi that would have reduced Jahanvi's speed.

#7 Board members + CEO of the liquor company that made the whisky Jahanvi drank.

#8 Finally, the two victims (deceased) for being idiotic enough to venture out in a taxi at a late hour when it is a known fact that the drunk party animals will be out in full force...........wait, can they be prosecuted for causing their own death ???
kianganz 17 Jun 2015, 17:42
+0 -1
If you want to be a dick and a troll, at least use your real name.

No one is or has ever argued that she is completely innocent (if all allegations are true), and if that's what you understood, you need to work on your reading comprehension.

But if legal discussions about mens rea, intent and criminal law are too complicated for you, maybe you're best off not commenting anymore...
Mr. Tambourine Man 16 Jun 2015, 11:12
+1 -0
Kian - people just don't get what you are trying to say. Its unfortunate that people barely read another opinion unless its reflective of their own opinion, however misguided and irrational as their opinion might be..would be tragic if the trollers are actually all a bunch of lawyers. Its commendable that you are trying but the stupidity can get exhausting after a point.
kianganz 16 Jun 2015, 11:41
+2 -0
Thanks, agree it's exhausting but I don't think it's futile to argue.

For instance, I just got this message on Whatsapp from an unknown number:

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHnXOkgWUAAFvfp.png[/img]

It appears he was upset about the article. We talked it out and I explained that despite having sympathy for the victims, I thought that Gadkar deserved a fair trial, why it's important in a democratic society, etc.

I think we're friends now :)

Maybe my article just wasn't good enough and it contained too many things that a lawyer audience might agree with, but laypersons would take as insensitivity...
Seema Sapra 16 Jun 2015, 12:37
+4 -2
Kian, actually I found your article not to be insensitive at all. I cannot understand the hate comments.

You did not defend Janhavi Gadkar or state that she should not be punished. Instead you wrote: "But if the events in the Gadkar case happened as they have been alleged, there certainly appears to be legal and moral culpability and the law should and hopefully will take its proper course."

You first sympathized with the victims.

But you cautioned against making Gadkar the subject of a hate campaign singling her out.

The two examples you gave of the hate directed against her, Barkha Dutt's tweet and the very silly Daily O article titled “these women who drink whisky for fun” are both good examples of hate.

Gadkari seems deeply apologetic about her mistake. Probably horrified. Yes she killed two people by a huge mistake and will pay for it, but how does that make Barkha tweet that. Yes the victims families might have grit and grace but why tweet that Gadkar has none and that somehow her being rich is responsible for that. She did not murder two people, she made a mistake and will pay for it.

The Daily O article demolishes Gadkar on the basis of an unsubstantiated statement attributed to Gadkar that she said "She'd done this before" and insisted on driving home. Now I think this statement was attributed to Gadkar by one of her colleagues at the hotel when Gadkar was still not very drunk. First this statement is unverified. Second Gadkar became much more drunk afterwards at the pub when she mixed beer with the whiskey.

It could be that the anti-Gadkar media tirade is directed by Reliance media managers to deflect attention from the CFO who in my opinion certainly has moral culpability if not legal. CCTV at the pub would show exactly how drunk Gadkar was at the end. Medical opinions could establish if she would be considered of sound mind given the alcohol content in her blood.

Someone that intoxicated could easily fall asleep at the wheel.

Media reports state that two cars followed her just before the accident, that might have further made her reckless given her condition.
Robin 16 Jun 2015, 22:42
+0 -0
I am completely agree with you Kian!
Humour 17 Jun 2015, 12:36
+0 -0
[quote name="kianganz"]


I think we're friends now :)

[/quote]


This cracked me up. :)
Dinesh 16 Jun 2015, 11:57
+2 -1
The media is ere to make money as you are to make money in your field , if you say a lawyer.

Also I used to be a drunk driver back in the day , J 49 days, today I look back and I hate myself,what the media is doing s spreading awareness to all he Richie rich snobs , don't drink and drive your money will get you in a sh t hole.

yeah we have the lorry drivers drinking and killing people but understand they not schemers like salman khan or a possible law twister jhanvi, peace.

Stop arguing maty you ending up n a whirl pool of hate.
kianganz 16 Jun 2015, 12:01
+1 -0
Just to clarify, Gadkar is a "possible law twister" why?
Just another human 17 Jun 2015, 04:45
+1 -0
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/High-drama-as-drunk-Worli-bizwoman-tries-to-flee-in-car-from-police-checkpoint/articleshow/47696521.cms
Moral duty? 17 Jun 2015, 06:18
+6 -1
It's very interesting how the MSM have jumped all over Janhavi with little regard for fact, but have remained utterly silent about why the Reliance CFO was having a drink with her at that time, why he did not say anything to the police until asked, and most importantly, why he did not insist that Janhavi catch a cab or be taken home.

This has nothing to do with Janhavi's actions, which are inexcusable and not the subject of this comment.

Just shows what a sham media coverage has become. If this had happened to the CFO of a company in the U.S. or the UK, they would have been all over this, asking some pretty hard questions.

More generally, as others have said in their comments, if we are to deal with drink driving we must fix some responsibility on the people who allow others to drink and drive in this manner.
Armchair Morality? 17 Jun 2015, 10:14
+0 -1
You find the MSM's "jumping all over Janhavi" very offensive, as has Kian in this piece (which viewpoint I totally agree with, by the way), but you want to foist "moral responsibility" now on Reliance's CFO and want media to "ask him some tough questions"......just because he did not "insist that Janhavi catch a cab"? And just because he did not say anything to the Police until asked? It is perfectly fine to have the media "jump all over him" for this?

Do you always insist that a friend who you are drinking with must take a cab, and if they say "No, am gonna drive my own car back", how exactly are you gonna impose your insistence upon them? Are you really saying that if you failed to do so, it's somehow (at a moral level at least) your fault that your friend caused an accident? I don't know about that. People (even people who report to you at work) can be quite forceful with their views when they are drunk and the subject under discussion is their own ability to drive back in such a condition.

SImilarly, if you had been drinking with a friend from work and they subsequently drove back drunk and caused an accident and you heard about it the next morning, would you really rush to the Police and voluntarily tell them that you were the last person the Accused was drinking with? If your honest answer to that is yes, then I must say (based on my own limited experience with people) that you belong to an Elite Minority List on the morality scales. In most circumstances, normal people don't make the choice that could bring upon them a lot of inconvenience and reputational risk especially when the offence in question had nothing to do with them!

Just because he is CFO of Reliance (or of any other "Evil Corporate), you are trying to foist very high expectations of moral behaviour on him, almost as if his "moral offence" was even greater than Janhavi's! How is your approach any different or fairer than the sensationalism-driven, prejudiced and imbalanced reporting on Janhavi in the MSM that Kian has addressed in this article (which viewpoint, I again reiterate, I agree with)?
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 10:57
+2 -1
If one goes out drinking with people one considers good friends, and for whatever reason one ends up very drunk so as to be unable to look out for oneself or drive oneself home, surely you would expect that your friends would look out for you. Right? That's why you trusted yourself to get drunk in their company, right?

So here we have the Reliance CFO asking Gadkar to join him for drinks at around 11 pm at night. If she ended up so drunk at the end of the night so as to be unable to walk unaided (which news reports record) then certainly its not too much to expect that the Reliance CFO should have insisted that Gadkar take a cab or should have arranged for her to get home safely.

Your paragraph 2 which I reproduce below is all speculation. You imagine that the CFO asked Gadkar not to drive and she forcefully insisted that she would. The facts of what happened are not out yet.

"Do you always insist that a friend who you are drinking with must take a cab, and if they say "No, am gonna drive my own car back", how exactly are you gonna impose your insistence upon them? Are you really saying that if you failed to do so, it's somehow (at a moral level at least) your fault that your friend caused an accident? I don't know about that. People (even people who report to you at work) can be quite forceful with their views when they are drunk and the subject under discussion is their own ability to drive back in such a condition."

Also, I do not know the nature of the relationship between the CFO and Gadkar. Were they merely colleagues, friendly colleagues, or friends or more? There was a big difference between their ages and positions in the company.

What if something else happened at the car when the CFO escorted Gadkar? We can speculate on many scenarios without access to facts, CCTV or to statements of Gadkar and the CFO.

Also the CFO is in a position of authority vis-a-vis Gadkar due to their positions in the company. He must have heard that Gadkar had been arrested for killing two people in an accident after she left his company. He knew that he had information that was relevant to the crime committed. A CFO of a listed company is a very responsible position whose incumbent must inspire trust. Therefore the CFO certainly should have contacted the police on his own.

Also was the meeting between the CFO and Gadkar a "work" meeting or a "personal" meeting? Tee company's obligations towards getting Gadkar home safely would also depend upon this.
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 09:40
+0 -0
The author seems to be a female shovernistic.
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 11:29
+2 -1
see http://www.asianage.com/mumbai/janhavi-gadkar-tried-protect-colleague-her-statement-850

"Mr Agarwal in his statement claimed that their meeting was work related where they wanted to discuss issues pertaining to the company,” said the officer."

"At Irish House, Gadkar and Mr Agarwal drank around five pitchers of beer between themselves, working up a bill of nearly Rs 5,500. So drunk was Ms Gadkar after the second session that she fell while standing up to leave from her table at the pub when staffers rushed to her aid. Mr Agarwal however helped her to her car, a red Audi Q3."
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 11:35
+2 -1
Reliance Industries issues advisory to its employees; asks them to not drink and drive

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/47697456.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 12:03
+2 -1
see http://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2015/06/12/car-accident-in-mumbai-by-drunk-reliance-executive-claims-the-life-of-businessman-salim-sabuwala/

"According to the statement provided by Gadkar to the police, she was drunk after a party and was so high on alcohol that she was unable to understand the road and drove through the wrong side of the Eastern Freeway, causing her Audi to ram into the taxi.The alcohol test conducted on the blood sample of Gadkar has revealed that he had 200mg of alcohol in 100ml of blood, which is six times more than the permissible limit of 30mg in 100ml."

This is very high alcohol content -

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_alcohol_content this would cause Nausea, vomiting, Emotional swings, Anger or sadness, Partial loss of understanding, Impaired sensations, Decreased libido, Possibility of stupor as behavior and Severe motor impairment, Loss of consciousness, Memory blackout as impairment.

I don't think a person with 200mg of alcohol in 100ml of blood would be considered mentally sound to be able to form any kind of intent.
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 12:15
+2 -1
Effects at specific Blood Alcohol Concentration (BAC) levels http://www.brad21.org/effects_at_specific_bac.html

See below. Gadkar was at 0.2 where the effects are "Feeling dazed, confused or otherwise disoriented. May need help to stand or walk. If you injure yourself you may not feel the pain. Some people experience nausea and vomiting at this level. The gag reflex is impaired and you can choke if you do vomit. Blackouts are likely at this level so you may not remember what has happened."

Legal impairment is at 0.08. It is illegal to drive at 0.08 in the US and Canada. In India it is illegal to drive at 0,03.

"The effects of alcohol intoxication are greatly influenced by individual variations among users. Some users may become intoxicated at a much lower Blood Alcohol Concentration (BAC) level than is shown.

0.02-0.03 BAC: No loss of coordination, slight euphoria and loss of shyness. Depressant effects are not apparent. Mildly relaxed and maybe a little lightheaded.

0.04-0.06 BAC: Feeling of well-being, relaxation, lower inhibitions, sensation of warmth. Euphoria. Some minor impairment of reasoning and memory, lowering of caution. Your behavior may become exaggerated and emotions intensified (Good emotions are better, bad emotions are worse)

0.07-0.09 BAC: Slight impairment of balance, speech, vision, reaction time, and hearing. Euphoria. Judgment and self-control are reduced, and caution, reason and memory are impaired, .08 is legally impaired and it is illegal to drive at this level. You will probably believe that you are functioning better than you really are.

0.10-0.125 BAC: Significant impairment of motor coordination and loss of good judgment. Speech may be slurred; balance, vision, reaction time and hearing will be impaired. Euphoria.

0.13-0.15 BAC: Gross motor impairment and lack of physical control. Blurred vision and major loss of balance. Euphoria is reduced and dysphoria (anxiety, restlessness) is beginning to appear. Judgment and perception are severely impaired.

0.16-0.19 BAC: Dysphoria predominates, nausea may appear. The drinker has the appearance of a "sloppy drunk."

0.20 BAC: Felling dazed, confused or otherwise disoriented. May need help to stand or walk. If you injure yourself you may not feel the pain. Some people experience nausea and vomiting at this level. The gag reflex is impaired and you can choke if you do vomit. Blackouts are likely at this level so you may not remember what has happened.

0.25 BAC: All mental, physical and sensory functions are severely impaired. Increased risk of asphyxiation from choking on vomit and of seriously injuring yourself by falls or other accidents.

0.30 BAC: STUPOR. You have little comprehension of where you are. You may pass out suddenly and be difficult to awaken.

0.35 BAC: Coma is possible. This is the level of surgical anesthesia.

0.40 BAC and up: Onset of coma, and possible death due to
respiratory arrest."
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 12:50
+0 -1
[quote name="Seema Sapra"]Effects at specific Blood Alcohol Concentration (BAC) levels http://www.brad21.org/effects_at_specific_bac.html

See below. Gadkar was at 0.2 where the effects are "Feeling dazed, confused or otherwise disoriented. May need help to stand or walk. If you injure yourself you may not feel the pain. Some people experience nausea and vomiting at this level. The gag reflex is impaired and you can choke if you do vomit. Blackouts are likely at this level so you may not remember what has happened."

Legal impairment is at 0.08. It is illegal to drive at 0.08 in the US and Canada. In India it is illegal to drive at 0,03.

"The effects of alcohol intoxication are greatly influenced by individual variations among users. Some users may become intoxicated at a much lower Blood Alcohol Concentration (BAC) level than is shown.

0.02-0.03 BAC: No loss of coordination, slight euphoria and loss of shyness. Depressant effects are not apparent. Mildly relaxed and maybe a little lightheaded.

0.04-0.06 BAC: Feeling of well-being, relaxation, lower inhibitions, sensation of warmth. Euphoria. Some minor impairment of reasoning and memory, lowering of caution. Your behavior may become exaggerated and emotions intensified (Good emotions are better, bad emotions are worse)

0.07-0.09 BAC: Slight impairment of balance, speech, vision, reaction time, and hearing. Euphoria. Judgment and self-control are reduced, and caution, reason and memory are impaired, .08 is legally impaired and it is illegal to drive at this level. You will probably believe that you are functioning better than you really are.

0.10-0.125 BAC: Significant impairment of motor coordination and loss of good judgment. Speech may be slurred; balance, vision, reaction time and hearing will be impaired. Euphoria.

0.13-0.15 BAC: Gross motor impairment and lack of physical control. Blurred vision and major loss of balance. Euphoria is reduced and dysphoria (anxiety, restlessness) is beginning to appear. Judgment and perception are severely impaired.

0.16-0.19 BAC: Dysphoria predominates, nausea may appear. The drinker has the appearance of a "sloppy drunk."

0.20 BAC: Felling dazed, confused or otherwise disoriented. May need help to stand or walk. If you injure yourself you may not feel the pain. Some people experience nausea and vomiting at this level. The gag reflex is impaired and you can choke if you do vomit. Blackouts are likely at this level so you may not remember what has happened.

0.25 BAC: All mental, physical and sensory functions are severely impaired. Increased risk of asphyxiation from choking on vomit and of seriously injuring yourself by falls or other accidents.

0.30 BAC: STUPOR. You have little comprehension of where you are. You may pass out suddenly and be difficult to awaken.

0.35 BAC: Coma is possible. This is the level of surgical anesthesia.

0.40 BAC and up: Onset of coma, and possible death due to
respiratory arrest."[/quote]

Seema Sapara (and also Kian)

What is the point of quoting all this? Is there any doubt about the effect of blood alcohol ?

One does not need to be a Chemistry major to know that alcohol impairs judgment and locomotion skills (at the least). Even small kids know that drinking causes hilarious after effects, portrayed time and again in Tintin, Asterix, Chacha Chaudhury and others. Forget driving, even walking and awareness can become so badly affected that some people make asses of themselves after a couple of drinks. Driving at night in a city is perilous as it is, even without alcohol so I cannot imagine what it would be after a few pegs.

That's why there is a law against it. A law which perhaps an uneducated driver may try to claim he did not know but which a VP of Reliance, aged 35 had no excuse for not knowing. Actually this is one of those few laws which I have found everyone to know, even taxi drivers will grumble about 'nasha pe chalana' (drunk driving) when they see party brats speed down city roads at 2 am.

There is simply no justification for what this female did. And it is pretty much the same as firing a loaded gun into a crowd (attracting S. 304, second part. What I say is not just a view, the supreme court and Bombay HC have blessed it in the Alastair Perriera case and Sallu bhai looks set to follow suit.

I am puzzled at the tone of this piece of moral hopscotch and can only put it down to an attempt by the author (and those who agree with him) to exorcise the ghosts of their own past. No sane person would conceive of remotely trying to shift the criminality of the act away from Jahanvi Gadkar.
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 12:50
+2 -1
After reading up on the effects of BAC levels, I think Janhavi Gadkar cannot even be held morally responsible for getting into a car and driving away that night from the Irish Pub if she had a BAC level of 0.2. To be morally responsible you should have the ability to reason and she was much beyond that. She was too mentally impaired.

She certainly cannot be held liable for culpable homicide not amounting to murder with a BAC level of 0.2. I even question whether she could have the requisite mens rea for Section 304A.

& I find it difficult to believe that Gadkar and the CFO had a work related discussion when during the meeting Gadkar's BAC levels must have varied between 0.1 to 0.2.

News reports state that Gadkar fell, couldn't walk unaided, she claims she does not remember anything after she reached the expressway (she had a blackout and memory loss) etc.

Most people posting above are talking of being responsible enough not to drive when their BAC levels were probably between 0.03 to 0.1 max. At 0.2 BAC you lose the ability to take that decision to be responsible and you are dependent upon others to take that decision for you.

All very unfortunate for the victims and for Janhavi Gadkar.
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 14:09
+1 -1
[quote name="Seema Sapra"]After reading up on the effects of BAC levels, I think Janhavi Gadkar cannot even be held morally responsible for getting into a car and driving away that night from the Irish Pub if she had a BAC level of 0.2. To be morally responsible you should have the ability to reason and she was much beyond that. She was too mentally impaired.

She certainly cannot be held liable for culpable homicide not amounting to murder with a BAC level of 0.2. I even question whether she could have the requisite mens rea for Section 304A.

& I find it difficult to believe that Gadkar and the CFO had a work related discussion when during the meeting Gadkar's BAC levels must have varied between 0.1 to 0.2.

News reports state that Gadkar fell, couldn't walk unaided, she claims she does not remember anything after she reached the expressway (she had a blackout and memory loss) etc.

Most people posting above are talking of being responsible enough not to drive when their BAC levels were probably between 0.03 to 0.1 max. At 0.2 BAC you lose the ability to take that decision to be responsible and you are dependent upon others to take that decision for you.

All very unfortunate for the victims and for Janhavi Gadkar.[/quote]

[b]Your reply has just exposed what a pitifully ignorant lawyer you are. For all the big talk you make on these forums you're just like the rest - throwing a few superficial points around with poor reasoning and zero research. [/b]

[b]You're trying to make out a case that Jahanvi Gadkar was out of her senses due to all that whisky she consumed - hence no culpability - yada yada. Somewhat like pleading an insanity defence. [/b]

Except DUI is vastly different from insanity. Insanity is insanity because it is not in the control of the sufferer. Do you think a ranchi inmate can help it when he or she goes psycho? (Or even Norman Bates from the reel Psycho (1960))?

I don't have the time to give you an introductory course on criminal law but here is what the Bombay High Court said in 2007 while upholding the conviction of a Mr Alistair Perreira (similarly accused of DUI and running over footpath dwellers)

[b]"Getting drunk and under the influence of liquor using a big stick or other weapon for giving blow on the head of a person resulting in death, would obviously be an act done with knowledge that the act would or is likely to cause death. Merely because an automotive car or scooter is involved in the same process would not by itself take the offence outside the scope of Section 304 "
[/b]
[b]"In the present case, the court has to examine whether a person in drunken condition, rashly and negligently chooses to drive in an overcrowded car, was fully aware that (a) poor persons sleep on the footpath of Mumbai (b) it is prohibited in law to drive a vehicle in drunken condition (under influence of liquor) and (c) it is also prohibited in law to drive a vehicle beyond permissible speed limit."
[/b]
"[b]Even before the accused started driving the car he would be deemed to be aware of the law that it is an offence to drive a vehicle under the influence of liquor.[/b] [b]In the present case the knowledge would be attributable to the accused as any person of common prudence would be deemed to have knowledge that he is not to drive the vehicle in drunken condition and that too at such high speed and in the manner as the accused was driving the vehicle.[/b]"

"[b]The very fact that he drove the car under the influence of liquor at a very high speed[/b] with loud music and making noise while driving are the pieces of evidence and attendant circumstances, which [b]would attribute the knowledge to the accused that his act could produce fatal result of losing control over the car and could injure persons sleeping on the footpaths or even could cause their death[/b]."

Alistair Perriera was eventually convicted by the Bombay HC of culpable homicide not amounting to murder (due to act done with knowledge that it is likely to cause death) and sentenced to 3 years. You can easily read that judgment online.

[b]I expect nothing less for dear hardworking, petite, softspoken, affectionate, friendly and kind Ms Jahanvi Gadkar, that star of a person, role model for millions and inspiration for would-be lawyers. An enhanced punishment of 7+ years would send the right message that this sort of criminal act will not be tolerated. [/b]
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 15:01
+3 -2
Actually my comments do not expose that I am a "pitifully ignorant lawyer" as you contend.

First let me clarify that I am not putting up a defence for Gadkar here. I was merely indulging in some exploratory musings on the factual and legal issues this matter raises.

You cite and quote from an SC decision that merely makes an observation that a drunk driver would be presumed to possess the knowledge that "his act could produce fatal result of losing control over the car and could injure persons sleeping on the footpaths or even could cause their death."

That's fine. That decision however does not consider the argument I have presented that the BAC of the accused would impact upon the mental capacity of that accused at the moment the accused took the decision to drive. And that in cases of very high BAC, issues of mental capacity of the accused may arise.

The argument I make was neither taken before that Bench and nor was it discussed or dismissed. Indeed the facts of that case might have been similar to the Salman Khan case where the BAC level was too low to claim mental incapacity.

I still point out that I am simply exploring (and certainly to an extent superficially since no one is paying me to do otherwise) the legal issues and am not giving a legal opinion here. As such I welcome engagement, discussion, dissent etc.

Loss of mental capacity due to high levels of alcohol intoxication is to a certain extent in the control of the drinker but the point I make is that once mental capacity is lost due to a high level of intoxication, what legal consequences should follow and what impact would such loss of mental capacity have on the legal requirement for mens rea in a criminal offence committed by a severely intoxicated person.

Now there might be cases where this issue has been discussed and the Court has ruled that the loss of actual mental capacity remains irrelevant, but the decision you cite clearly does not state this.

So I don't agree with you that I am pitifully ignorant or that I am merely "throwing a few superficial points around with poor reasoning and zero research". I am of course merely commenting on a news site. But my comments are certainly not as worthless as you declare. Some might actually appreciate them.

I found your comment though to be too self-righteous and too sure of itself. If I were Gadkar's defence counsel, I'd certainly explore along the lines of my musings.

If there is anything about the law that I have learnt, its that there is always an exception to be argued to any certainty.
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 16:45
+0 -1
[quote name="Seema Sapra"]Actually my comments do not expose that I am a "pitifully ignorant lawyer" as you contend.

The argument I make was neither taken before that Bench and nor was it discussed or dismissed. Indeed the facts of that case might have been similar to the Salman Khan case where the BAC level was too low to claim mental incapacity.

[/quote]

Actually they do. As does this follow on post.

Do you know why your argument was never taken before that bench (or any other bench) ? Not just in India, but all over the world.

Because that logic is utterly ridiculous. A sensible (or reasonable) person would stop to think twice (or more) before starting any drink if they knew they had come in their car without a driver and had to drive back. It's not hard at all. I've done it a zillion times. You are welcome to do some proper research and show a single case in the last twenty years in the USA or the UK where a DUI vehicular homicide case has been let off on grounds of "insanity". The only person susceptible to insanity here is the lawyer who suggested that defence.

Done what you ask?

Done this - Declined a drink because I do not wish to tempt fate when I have a car parked outside and a home to get back to.

My self-righteousness on this issue comes from being very careful with my drinking habits from the day I started driving and sparing a thought for all those who might happen to be on the same road as I. As a pedestrian and also a passenger on Indian roads I do not think it is too much to ask other drivers to be equally careful.
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 17:34
+3 -1
Actually they don't and neither does your follow up post.

So I looked at the Bombay High Court decision in Alistair Perriera. In that case, the accused actually denied that he was drunk. He did not claim diminished mental capacity due to severe intoxication and very high BAC say 0.2. The accused also denied negligence and claimed mechanical failure as the cause of the accident.

Also the accused's BAC was not properly measured but some reports say his blood alcohol level was twice the permitted limit, so it was probably around 0.06. Again a BAC of 0.06 is too low to claim mental impairment. So in Alistair Perriera the issue of mental impairment due to severe intoxication was neither raised, nor relevant nor decided.

The Bom HC merely held that in case of drunk driving, a person would be presumed to have knowledge that his act was dangerous and could cause death.

However note the following extracts from this decision which lend themselves to the interpretation that the knowledge ingredient in Sec 299 for culpable homicide is actual knowledge as deduced from the totality of circumstances and not a legal presumption. Further even if there were a legal presumption of knowledge in drunk driving cases, could not that be displaced by the positive establishment of mental impairment due to severe intoxication, say a BAC of 0.2.

" To establish knowledge as an ingredient of criminal offence, there has to be an affirmative or circumstantial evidence to bring home to the accused that he had knowledge of his acts. What a person of normal and ordinary prudence foresee by utilization of his sense directly, would be knowledge."

"Knowledge'is an awareness on the part of the person concerned indicating his state of mind."

"These two requirements i.e. " knowledge" and "reason to believe" have to be deduced from various circumstances in the case."

"A very important principle of law has been enunciated by the Supreme Court in the case of Jayprakash v. State (Delhi Administration) . The court accepted that intention and knowledge both are factors which have to be gathered from the facts and circumstances of each case and there cannot be a yardstick uniformly provided for application of such principle."

"But whether the intention is there or not is one of fact and not one of law."

"It can thus be seen that the 'knowledge'as contrasted with 'intention' signify a state of mental realisation with the bare state of conscious awareness of certain facts in which human mind remains supine or inactive. On the other hand, 'intention'is a conscious state in which mental faculties are aroused into activity and summoned into action for the purpose of achieving a conceived end."

"Knowledge'being of lesser degree has to depend considerably on attendant circumstances and awareness of a common man in relation to the acts and deeds immediately preceding or at the time of occurrence of the offence."

""Actual knowledge" stricto senso may not be the sine qua non of the ingredients of Section 304 Part(II) of IPC. 'Knowledge',as understood in its common parlance would have to be gathered from the evidence on record substantive or circumstantial, and the attendant circumstances thereto. While objectively analysing the evidence on record for gathering knowledge contemplated under this provisions, the court, inter alia, may have to examine the following aspects to which knowledge may relate to:

(a) The evidence and attendant circumstances in relation to an act or omission committed by the actor /offender prior to the actual occurrence of the incident;

(b) Whether the actor/offender could reasonably perceive the consequences of his acts, misdeeds or omission, examined from the point of view of `normal human conduct of a person of common prudence'; and"

" Knowledge is not a term to be construed in abstract. It must be given objective meaning keeping in view the facts and circumstances of a given case. Simplest test would be whether as a norm of normal behaviour the person can perceive by his senses the consequences of his acts, omissions or commission; where such human conduct brings results which are criminal offences, it would satisfy actus reus. Where a physical event which is prohibited by law is even preceded by offences, which is known to the offender, the knowledge can be gathered more affirmatively, as ultimately it is a question of fact dependent upon the evidence on record and the attendant circumstances."
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 17:51
+1 -0
[quote name="Seema Sapra"]Actually they don't and neither does your follow up post.

So I looked at the Bombay High Court decision in Alistair Perriera. In that case, the accused actually denied that he was drunk. He did not claim diminished mental capacity due to severe intoxication and very high BAC say 0.2. The accused also denied negligence and claimed mechanical failure as the cause of the accident.

[/quote]

[...]

Here is a disclosure. I work for a senior lawyer with a flourishing criminal practice. I was aware of the legal position on DUI and possible arguments long before I put fingers to keyboard.

[...]

The Alistair Perreira judgment is 43 pages and requires a careful reading. It places on record quite clearly, several times that the accused was found drunk and the offence of homicide while DUI was very much a case of culpable homicide not amounting to murder.

Anyway FWIW, this is what the court said:

[b]"On facts it can hardly be believed that a person in drunken condition or under the influence of liquor, having 0.112% v/v alcohol in his blood driving a vehicle rashly and negligently with high speed and with high tape recorder sound, would not have knowledge that there is every likelihood of his meeting with an accident resulting in death or injury to others, particularly those sleeping on the footpaths. The knowledge of such facts can neither be far away from reality and, in any case, would squarely fall within the term of "knowledge" appearing in Section 304 Part(II). "

65. One of the main arguments raised on behalf of the accused was that the prosecution has no way proved that the accused was drunk or under influence of liquor. Even medical evidence in this regard has also not been proved in accordance with law. This argument is again without any merit. [/b]

[...]
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 18:07
+2 -1
Yes in Alister Anthony Pareira the accused was found drunk but the point I was making is that he claimed he was not drunk and therefore the issue of his being so drunk as to cause mental impairment was not in issue in that case. That case does not therefore settle the law on this point.
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 19:08
+0 -0
[quote name="Seema Sapra"]Yes in Alister Anthony Pareira the accused was found drunk but the point I was making is that he claimed he was not drunk and therefore the issue of his being so drunk as to cause mental impairment was not in issue in that case. That case does not therefore settle the law on this point.[/quote]

LOL

I actually sat through many months of the Perriera hearings and I can tell you this...if he was daft enough to plead insanity, he'd have got a 10 year sentence instead of just 3.

Thanks for the innovative ideas. [...]
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 19:36
+3 -2
Yes, because Perriera only had at most 0.06 BAC or less, he was clearly able to form intent and have knowledge, he killed 15 people. So he would have been daft to plead mental impairment due to intoxication. His facts did not allow it.

But Gadkar had 0.2 BAC which causes a dazed confused, disoriented state

Surely its not too absurd for her lawyers to attempt to argue that she should not be attributed knowledge for culpable homicide not amounting to murder and that she be tried under 304A.

The Bom HC in Perriera did not settle this issue and neither was this issue before the SC in Perriera.

Surely its worth a try.

Gadkar's lawyers are already arguing for 304A. Surely her 0.2 BAC is an additional supporting argument for them to do this?
Guest 18 Jun 2015, 03:29
+0 -0
[quote name="Seema Sapra"]Yes, because Perriera only had at most 0.06 BAC or less, he was clearly able to form intent and have knowledge, he killed 15 people. So he would have been daft to plead mental impairment due to intoxication. His facts did not allow it.

But Gadkar had 0.2 BAC which causes a dazed confused, disoriented state

Surely its not too absurd for her lawyers to attempt to argue that she should not be attributed knowledge for culpable homicide not amounting to murder and that she be tried under 304A.

The Bom HC in Perriera did not settle this issue and neither was this issue before the SC in Perriera.

Surely its worth a try.

Gadkar's lawyers are already arguing for 304A. Surely her 0.2 BAC is an additional supporting argument for them to do this?[/quote]

You have still not read the Perriera judgment else you would not his blood alcohol was measured and found to be 0.l12 (it's mentioned several times in the order so I dunno how you missied it).

304A has been pleaded by DUI killers since time immemorial (and that used to succeed) but not anymore as the Perriera and Nanda judgments have proven. It's a settled issue. I would now advise a plea of guilty under 304 with request for mitigated sentence instead if 304A. The decks are now clear for prosecution under 304 part (ii) and in another ten years I'm sure they will be prosecuted under S. 300 for imminently dangerous acts.
Seema Sapra 18 Jun 2015, 09:58
+0 -1
Periera Bom HC decision does not give his BAC. BAC is not expressed as a %.

The Periera judgement says 0.112% with no indication what was BAC. Is this 0.112 in ml or l / mg or gm?

I reproduce para 65 from the Bom HC judgement, no where does it say BAC of 0.112, instead it says "the blood contained 0.112 percent W/v of ethyl alcohol." that's not BAC unless we know more.

"One of the main arguments raised on behalf of the accused was that the prosecution has no way proved that the accused was drunk or under influence of liquor. Even medical evidence in this regard has also not been proved in accordance with law. This argument is again without any merit. The Investigating Officer (P.W.17) has clearly stated that she had taken the accused in custody, taken him to the hospital and his blood sample was taken by the doctor and sent for Chemical Analysis. Dr. Barve P.W.1 has also stated that he had taken the blood sample of the accused and found him in drunken condition. After the blood and urine samples were subjected to analysis, Exhibit 48, was the report received from the Director, Forensic Science Laboratory and Chemical Adviser to Government wherein it was stated that bottle with seal intact was received, contents of which showed 42% v/v of ethyl alcohol in water. It was not a medicinal/antiseptic/ toilet preparation, nor a flavouring material. Exhibit 49, the report of the Chemical Analyser of the analysis of blood sample of accused which was received in seal intact condition states that "the blood contained 0.112percent W/v of ethyl alcohol.". Common Exhibit 49 was given to these blood and urine test reports. The urine test result indicated that "the urine contained 0.056percent W/v of ethyl alcohol". This was the ocular and documentary evidence produced by the prosecution to show that the accused was drunk while driving the vehicle which met with an accident. In accordance with the provisions of Section 66(1)(b) of the Bombay Prohibition Act, 1949 if it is proved that the concentration of alcohol in the blood of the accused person is not less than 0.05 per cent, weight in volume, then he would be deemed to have committed offence, unless he proves otherwise. During the cross examination of the prosecution witnesses not even a suggestion was made at any point of time that the accused was not drunk or was not driving under influence of liquor."

News reports describe the Maharashtra Advocate General Ravi Kadam as having stated "Chemical analysis of his blood sample, which was not challenged by the defence, showed that alcohol quantity in Alistair's blood was twice the permitted limit." see http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/jul/03alis.htm?zcc=rl

That would mean a BAC of around 0.06 as the permitted limit is 0.03.

I responded to the rest of your comment at the end see comment no. 85.
Seema Sapra 18 Jun 2015, 10:07
+0 -0
& before I get trolled, correction, Pariera killed 7 peeople, he ran over 15, 8 survived with injuries.
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 13:32
+3 -2
Salman Khan's BAC level was 0.062. At that level he was able to "decide" whether or not to drive drunk. He did not lack mental capacity.

Gadkar's BAC was 0.2. At that level, Gadkar could not have had the mental capacity to "decide" whether or not to drive drunk, i.e., she was mentally incapable of understanding the consequences of her decision to drive.

Another point, according to news reports Gadkar fractured an arm but might have used it when/ after she was extricated from her car. This would fit in with her BAC being 0.2 as that increases the pain threshold.
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 15:21
+2 -0
[quote name="Seema Sapra"]Salman Khan's BAC level was 0.062. At that level he was able to "decide" whether or not to drive drunk. He did not lack mental capacity.

Gadkar's BAC was 0.2. At that level, Gadkar could not have had the mental capacity to "decide" whether or not to drive drunk, i.e., she was mentally incapable of understanding the consequences of her decision to drive.

Another point, according to news reports Gadkar fractured an arm but might have used it when/ after she was extricated from her car. This would fit in with her BAC being 0.2 as that increases the pain threshold.[/quote]

You think quoting all this rubbish will give some impression that Jahanvi Gadkar's action was akin to sleepwalking?

FYI here is what Kian Ganz's home country has to say about DUI causing death

[b]"The fact that the offender was under the influence of drink or drugs is an inherent element of this offence. The guideline is based both on the level of alcohol or drug consumption and on the degree of carelessness.

The increase in sentence is more marked where there is an increase in the level of intoxication than were here is an increase in the degree of carelessness reflecting the 14 year imprisonment maximum for this offence compared with a 5 year maximum for causing death by careless or inconsiderate driving alone. "[/b]

-- source is Crown Prosecution Service website

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/death_by_careless_driving_under_the_influence/

[b]The punishment in the UK for such offences is a minimum of 14 years BTW. Maybe Kian Ganz forgot to bring that up in this shameless defence of drunk driving.[/b] Mrs Gadkar should get the statutory maximum in India, given the fact that she was a well-educated lawyer and expected to know the law.
kianganz 17 Jun 2015, 17:34
+0 -0
Indeed, I'm aware that under UK common law voluntary intoxication is not an absolute defence (unlike self-defence, for instance), but it is only a defence to crimes requiring 'specific intent'.

Take the infamous R v Lipman (1970) case where Lipman killed a girl while hallucinating that snakes were attacking him, having taken LSD. It was held that he couldn't be guilty of murder, because due to his intoxication he was incapable of having the necessary intent to kill (because he literally didn't know that he was murdering someone).

However, manslaughter would stick, because recklessness is sufficient to prove manslaughter (rather than specific intent).

Here's a good summary of intoxication and intent under English common law.
http://e-lawresources.co.uk/Intoxication.php

However, drink driving is a completely different category, since there's a public interest in discouraging people from drinking and driving and then claiming drunkenness as a defence to the killing, hence the almost strict liability provision under UK law.

But I think what Seema is arguing is that the amount of drunkenness can make a difference in whether the charge is culpable homicide (requiring recklessness), rather than the lesser charge of driving rashly (requiring only negligence).

I'm not an Indian criminal law expert, and this is not what I covered in the article, but would be interesting to get some basic legal principles on drink driving in India out.

Are the only offences committed by someone killing someone while drink driving, a) driving under the influence, and b) culpable homicide, or rashly driving & killing?
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 17:49
+2 -1
Yes, the issue boils down to whether there is strict liability for causing death by drunk driving under Indian law irrespective of actual intent, knowledge or negligence.

Given that causing death by drunk driving can either fall under culpable homicide not amounting to murder - requiring knowledge and under death by negligence or rash driving, it seems we do not really have a strict liability principle in the statute at least. If there was, then there would be no reason to create two separate offences of differing culpability.

Has the Supreme Court ruled on this?

The Bom HC decision in Alister Anthony Pareira does not really settle this issue.

Therefore is this issue still technically open under Indian law?
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 17:55
+0 -0
[quote name="kianganz"]Indeed, I'm aware that under UK common law voluntary intoxication is not an absolute defence (unlike self-defence, for instance), but it is only a defence to crimes requiring 'specific intent'.

Take the infamous R v Lipman (1970) case where Lipman killed a girl while hallucinating that snakes were attacking him, having taken LSD. It was held that he couldn't be guilty of murder, because due to his intoxication he was incapable of having the necessary intent to kill (because he literally didn't know that he was murdering someone).

However, manslaughter would stick, because recklessness is sufficient to prove manslaughter (rather than specific intent).

Here's a good summary of intoxication and intent under English common law.
http://e-lawresources.co.uk/Intoxication.php

However, drink driving is a completely different category, since there's a public interest in discouraging people from drinking and driving and then claiming drunkenness as a defence to the killing, hence the almost strict liability provision under UK law.

But I think what Seema is arguing is that the amount of drunkenness can make a difference in whether the charge is culpable homicide (requiring recklessness), rather than the lesser charge of driving rashly (requiring only negligence).

I'm not an Indian criminal law expert, and this is not what I covered in the article, but would be interesting to get some basic legal principles on drink driving in India out.

Are the only offences committed by someone killing someone while drink driving, a) driving under the influence, and b) culpable homicide, or rashly driving & killing?[/quote]

Kian, surely you're not trying to obfuscate the issue?

Let me ask you a simple question assuming you are qualified as a lwyer in the U.K.

[b]Can a person who drinks say 10 pegs of Glenfidditch and then drives and then kills someone after losing control of his vehicle expect to be let off and remanded to a mental institution on the plea of insanity? Will such a plea be seriously entertained by an English court? Are the chances for such an accused good?

Yes or No ? [/b]
kianganz 17 Jun 2015, 18:00
+0 -2
You quoted my comment but didn't appear to have read it. Let me quote again:

[quote]However, drink driving is a completely different category, since there's a public interest in discouraging people from drinking and driving and then claiming drunkenness as a defence to the killing, hence the almost strict liability provision under UK law.[/quote]

I assume you're familiar that strict liability means that you won't be let off, irrespective of your intent or level of intoxication. But that's because drinking and driving is in a special category under UK law.

It's been ages since I've done my criminal law, but if I remember rightly, you might only be able to escape liability if you avail of another defence, such as involuntary intoxication or self-defence.

Anything still unclear in my earlier comment?
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 19:06
+0 -0
[quote name="kianganz"]You quoted my comment but didn't appear to have read it. Let me quote again:

[quote]However, drink driving is a completely different category, since there's a public interest in discouraging people from drinking and driving and then claiming drunkenness as a defence to the killing, hence the almost strict liability provision under UK law.[/quote]

I assume you're familiar that strict liability means that you won't be let off, irrespective of your intent or level of intoxication. But that's because drinking and driving is in a special category under UK law.

It's been ages since I've done my criminal law, but if I remember rightly, you might only be able to escape liability if you avail of another defence, such as involuntary intoxication or self-defence.

Anything still unclear in my earlier comment?[/quote]

"Assume you're familiar with ..."
"Ages since I read criminal law..."

Why so hesitant in giving a straight answer? this is not a cross examination and your knowledge is not on trial here. I read somewhere that Kian Ganz is a lawyer from UK so I thought he can clarify whether this "defence" of insanity is valid there. Surely if we cannot take a cue from the U.K., where will we take our cues from? :)

Anyway I'll take that as a yes.

Point proved.
kianganz 17 Jun 2015, 19:19
+0 -0
Well done, you've finally figured out that the answer was yes, which should have been clear from my initial comment too :)

Like I said, I'm not an expert, all I'm sharing is vaguely remembered criminal law from university and the jurisprudence on intoxication in general is quite complicated, so a qualification to my comments seems sensible.
KnowTheTruth 17 Jun 2015, 15:21
+1 -0
Seemaji - I am not a lawyer, but should this be read as:
"If you wanna drive drunk, make sure you are really so drunk that you cannot be held responsible for what you do"?

Please enlighten.
KnowTheTruth 17 Jun 2015, 15:45
+2 -0
It's interesting that she expressed her readiness to 'pay up' and settle the matter even at 0.2 BAC
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 13:51
+2 -1
See http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/increased-penalties-for-high-blood-alcohol-content.aspx

In the US, regular enforcement and tests on drivers ensure that persons driving drunk are strictly penalized as a deterrent. The measures include suspension of licence, restricted licences, imprisonment, mandatory installation of ignition interlock devices, mandatory counselling, alcohol treatment, attendance at an alcohol highway safety school, and compliance with all drug and alcohol treatment requirements, etc. These penalties apply in cases of drunk driving even when there is no accident.

Compare this to the fine for drunk driving in India if you are ever caught. The other Mumbai lady in the news this week paid a fine of Rs. 2000.
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 14:31
+2 -3
At a BAC of 0.2, the risk of a serious accident is exponentially higher

See www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/809-050pdf.pdf

"The relative risk of receiving a fatal injury in a single vehicle crash increases steadily with increasing driver BAC for both males and females in every age group with one exception (see Figure 1 and Table 6.1). Among all male and female drivers, except those in the 16-20 group, the relative risk of receiving a fatal injury is lower for drivers with a positive BAC under 0.02% than for drivers with 0.0% BAC. Remarkably, however, for the 16-20 age group, the comparable relative risk was substantially increased even at this low positive BAC, by 55% among males, and by 35% among females. Looking at relative risk across the six age and gender groups, we find that at a BAC of 0.035%, it was elevated by a factor between 2.6 and 4.6, at a BAC of 0.065%, by a factor between 5.8 and 17.3, at a BAC of 0.09%, by a factor between 11.4 and 52, at a BAC of 0.125%, by a factor between 29.3 and 240.9, and at a BAC of
0.220%, by a factor between 382 and 15,560."

At a BAC of around 0.2, the risk of a fatal injury in a single vehicle crash increases by anyrhing between 382 to 15,560%.

Janhavi Gadkar endangered her own life as well. The only reason she survived was because she was driving an Audi with airbags and the other car was an easily crushable Omni van.
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 16:58
+2 -1
For all those who find Sapra Madam's very original and novel "insanity" defence attractive, don't take the bubbly out yet.

This is a very settled issue.

Voluntary intoxication is not a defence against criminal charges. This is so settled that in some states of the USA this defence has not been used in over thirty years.

As the Supreme Court and Bombay HC have said, this is not a defence in India as well.

A second year law student who comes up with this 'defence' can be commended for originality.

A lawyer with some years of practice [should not].
Seema Sapra 17 Jun 2015, 18:01
+2 -2
But where have the Indian Supreme Court and Bombay High Court actually said this? That severe voluntary intoxication leading to mental impairment is not a defence against culpable homicide not amounting to murder on account of drunk driving. If you see my comments above at 77.1.1.1.1 and 78.1.1.1, the Bom HC in Alister Anthony Pareira did not decide this issue and some of the observations there could be read to require the establishment of actual knowledge as opposed to a legal presumption of knowledge in a drunk driving case.

Does Indian law have strict liability for causing death due to drunk driving. If yes, then why are there two separate offences based upon knowledge or negligence.

Where has the Indian Supreme Court ruled on this?
KnowTheTruth 17 Jun 2015, 19:32
+2 -0
[quote name="Guest"]
A second year law student who comes up with this 'defence' can be commended for originality.

A lawyer with some years of practice [should not].[/quote]

Your argument is valid, but it's not fair to challenge another's capability. She is entitled to an opinion as much as you and I are. Even defence lawyers put up silly arguments as the last resort.

Thanks for sharing the legal provisions around such cases. I found this thread more insightful than many other websites where emotions of lay people run high.
Guest 18 Jun 2015, 03:33
+0 -0
[quote name="KnowTheTruth"][quote name="Guest"]
A second year law student who comes up with this 'defence' can be commended for originality.

A lawyer with some years of practice [should not].[/quote]

Your argument is valid, but it's not fair to challenge another's capability. She is entitled to an opinion as much as you and I are. Even defence lawyers put up silly arguments as the last resort.

Thanks for sharing the legal provisions around such cases. I found this thread more insightful than many other websites where emotions of lay people run high.[/quote]

Sorry if I was harsh to her. I know defence lawyers put up silly arguments but there us a difference between silly arguments and arguments that have been tried and are now discarded from criminal jurisprudence. Maye Jahanvi's lawyers can argue that she had a mysterious driver who fled the scene ... or that her drink was spiked. That's silly but original. But to say she was insane because she drank 10 pegs is not silly, its stupid.
Seema Sapra 18 Jun 2015, 05:38
+3 -1
Now instead of misrepresenting what I stated, "But to say she was insane because she drank 10 pegs is not silly, its stupid." please respond to my comment at 84, which I reproduce here again for you.


"OK, maybe Indian criminal lawyers can shed some light on these questions.

Is there a strict liability principle for causing death or injury due to drunk driving in India that does not depend upon the state of mind (intent, knowledge or negligence) of the driver?

Does Indian law make a distinction between general intent and specific intent crimes when it comes to the voluntary intoxication defence? Please cite the relevant SC decisions.

Is culpable homicide not amounting to murder a specific intent crime as opposed to a general intent crime? What about negligently causing death under 304A?

What does the current Indian law state on how to determine whether a case of causing death due to drunk driving will attract culpable homicide not amounting to murder or negligently causing death under 304A? If this choice depends upon facts of the case, then what kind of facts make a difference? Do these facts concern the state of mind of the accused? Will the intoxication level of the accused and diminished mental capacity due to severe intoxication form part of such relevant facts?

Has the Bombay High Court in Alister Anthony Pareira answered the above questions? Please quote the relevant extracts. I don't think it has.

I have one more theoretical question.
What if Gadkar's severe intoxication at 0.2 BAC made it impossible for her to move from her seat at the pub to her seat at the car unaided. What if Gadkar could physically not have sat in her car and driven off in that condition if pub staff and/or the CFO had not helped her? Would this be relevant for her culpability in any way. The crime would not have been committed without the actus reus of the CFO who helped Gadkar to and into her car. What then? "
kianganz 17 Jun 2015, 18:06
+1 -0
For the avoidance of doubt and responding to another comment not for publication, [b]NO ONE is arguing in this thread that Gadkar has a complete defence for what is alleged. [/b]

But there is the question of whether she will be charged with the 2-year-maximum jail term causing death by rash driving, or the 10-year maximum culpable homicide charge.

In fact, that is exactly what her defence lawyer has been trying to argue in the bail plea, and what any criminal lawyer would try to argue in a trial, presumably.

See here:
http://www.legallyindia.com/Bar-Bench-Litigation/janhavi-gadkar-bail-plea-deferred-2-days-as-victim-s-daughter-files-ia

If we can't argue about theoretical points of law on a website about lawyers, then where should this be argued?
Guest 17 Jun 2015, 19:01
+0 -1
[quote name="kianganz"]For the avoidance of doubt and responding to another comment not for publication, [b]NO ONE is arguing in this thread that Gadkar has a complete defence for what is alleged. [/b]

But there is the question of whether she will be charged with the 2-year-maximum jail term causing death by rash driving, or the 10-year maximum culpable homicide charge.

In fact, that is exactly what her defence lawyer has been trying to argue in the bail plea, and what any criminal lawyer would try to argue in a trial, presumably.

See here:
http://www.legallyindia.com/Bar-Bench-Litigation/janhavi-gadkar-bail-plea-deferred-2-days-as-victim-s-daughter-files-ia

If we can't argue about theoretical points of law on a website about lawyers, then where should this be argued?[/quote]

There is no doubt on the issue. The SC and the Bombay HC have held that such an offence amounts to culpable homicide not amounting to murder under S. 304 second part (and not 304A), punishable by a term upto ten years in jail. Alistair Perriera was convicted under this provision as has Salman Khan. Expect more to come in the days ahead.

I shall pray earnestly that this lady (Jahanvi, not Sapra) gets the maximum sentence. IF she does not deserve it, I dont know who does. We may as well repeal the IPC.
kianganz 17 Jun 2015, 19:27
+1 -0
Thanks, that's interesting - can you provide a citation from a judgment or statute on this point, or explain the jurisprudence a little more?

I.e., in a theoretical scenario where someone is so drunk that they're incapable of the requisite mens rea of recklessness, how is that dealt with by law?

Does the law presume that the original act of getting blind drunk while knowing there's a car one has to drive reckless? I think in some jurisdictions the very first drink is presumed to be the reckless act.

I agree that for policy reasons there needs to be liability, but I'm trying to figure out how this fits into existing criminal law in the absence of a specific statute dealing with causing death by drink driving.
Wannabe Criminal Lawyer 18 Jun 2015, 03:03
+0 -0
I am a corporate lawyer who (very mistakenly) harbours notions of "being half-decent at criminal law" :-) Here's my analysis of the key legal issues and defences.

Ordering and consuming that particular drink which takes you above the legal limit for driving, though not an actus reus by itself - is the point at which mens rea can first begun to be attributed to the accused. In my view, there are two key mens rea questions to ask here:

1. Can the accused reasonably be expected to know that the consumption of that particular drink is likely to take him/her above thelegal alcohol limit? That is the first question to be asked to determine the "commencement" of mens rea. But this is not a conclusive question in itself to be able to establish mens rea - because, a defence lawyer could still argue that it has not been established that at THAT point in time, the accused had an intent to drive while still being at BAC level above permissible limits.

2. Therefore, the second mens rea question to ask would be - Did the accused know or can the accused be reasonably be expected to know at the point of entering his/her car that the act of driving a car while his/her BAC was above legal limits was not only a criminal act in itself (under the Motor Vehicles Act, carrying prison term and revocation of licence as possible punishment) but also an extremely dangerous one which could cause grievous hurt or death to people (including himself/herself)?

If the answers to both the above mens rea questions is a YES, then the ingredients for an offence requiring recklessness (say, 304 second part) have clearly been satisfied. How resoundingly the prosecution is able to answer the above questions in the affirmative will have a bearing on the sentencing, of course, and that is a matter of evidence to show mitigating or exacerbating factors.

Now, the only question left to establish is whether the accused can avail of any exemptions from the liability for recklessness. Can being under the influence of alcohol by itself be a valid defines to an offence of recklessness causing death? In my view, probably not. Especially when one views the fact that drunken driving is a strict liability offence under the MV Act and carries a possible prison term as a punishment. But the alcohol factor, combined with other circumstances, could perhaps, be used as a good defence strategy. Therefore, if the defence is able to establish CHRONIC ALCOHOLISM (as opposed to merely "Hey, I was just totally totally drunk THAT night and had no ability THAT night to make the right decisions), then it could make for a good defence. The idea is to be able to argue that the accused is a CHRONIC alcoholic who is INHERENTLY INCAPABLE of taking the decision to not drink alcohol beyond permissible limits. This is a matter of medical evidence. The only other scenario as I see it, where the alcohol factor can be a defence is if the defence is able to establish INVOLUNTARY/FORCED CONSUMPTION of huge amounts of alcohol.

Also, other usual defences like GSP, for example, may not be arguable here for a "recklessness" offence. In my view, GSP has been specifically allowed as a defence for the offence of murder because the offence of murder requires the highest form of mens rea (intent to kill) to be established beyond reasonable doubt, and also because the punishment for murder is death or life......so there was a need felt to provide a GSP type defence. The same yardstick may not work for recklessness offences because the level of culpability or mens rea required to constitute these offences is significantly lower than for murder. But factors pointing to GSP or similar circumstances could surely be used as strong mitigating factors by the defence wrt sentencing.
Guest 18 Jun 2015, 03:35
+0 -0
[quote name="kianganz"]Thanks, that's interesting - can you provide a citation from a judgment or statute on this point, or explain the jurisprudence a little more?

I.e., in a theoretical scenario where someone is so drunk that they're incapable of the requisite mens rea of recklessness, how is that dealt with by law?

Does the law presume that the original act of getting blind drunk while knowing there's a car one has to drive reckless? I think in some jurisdictions the very first drink is presumed to be the reckless act.

I agree that for policy reasons there needs to be liability, but I'm trying to figure out how this fits into existing criminal law in the absence of a specific statute dealing with causing death by drink driving.[/quote]

You earlier claimed that I did not read your posts. My turn to do the same. Please read the quotations from the judgment in my earlier post. The court has held that DUI death = doing a dangerous act with knowledge that it is likely to cause death, therefore culpable homicide.
Seema Sapra 18 Jun 2015, 02:26
+2 -1
OK, maybe Indian criminal lawyers can shed some light on these questions.

Is there a strict liability principle for causing death or injury due to drunk driving in India that does not depend upon the state of mind (intent, knowledge or negligence) of the driver?

Does Indian law make a distinction between general intent and specific intent crimes when it comes to the voluntary intoxication defence? Please cite the relevant SC decisions.

Is culpable homicide not amounting to murder a specific intent crime as opposed to a general intent crime? What about negligently causing death under 304A?

What does the current Indian law state on how to determine whether a case of causing death due to drunk driving will attract culpable homicide not amounting to murder or negligently causing death under 304A? If this choice depends upon facts of the case, then what kind of facts make a difference? Do these facts concern the state of mind of the accused? Will the intoxication level of the accused and diminished mental capacity due to severe intoxication form part of such relevant facts?

Has the Bombay High Court in Alister Anthony Pareira answered the above questions? Please quote the relevant extracts. I don't think it has.

I have one more theoretical question.
What if Gadkar's severe intoxication at 0.2 BAC made it impossible for her to move from her seat at the pub to her seat at the car unaided. What if Gadkar could physically not have sat in her car and driven off in that condition if pub staff and/or the CFO had not helped her? Would this be relevant for her culpability in any way. The crime would not have been committed without the actus reus of the CFO who helped Gadkar to and into her car. What then?
Seema Sapra 18 Jun 2015, 06:20
+3 -1
Someone wrote in the comments above:

"304A has been pleaded by DUI killers since time immemorial (and that used to succeed) but not anymore as the Perriera and Nanda judgments have proven. It's a settled issue. I would now advise a plea of guilty under 304 with request for mitigated sentence instead if 304A. The decks are now clear for prosecution under 304 part (ii) and in another ten years I'm sure they will be prosecuted under S. 300 for imminently dangerous acts."

So what this person is actually contending is that until the Periera decision, death by DUI cases used to be treated as 304A in some cases, but that after the Periera decision, all death by DUI cases will be culpable homicide not amounting to murder.

So essentially this means is that the Periera decision modified Indian law on this issue? I would respond that there can be no judicial legislation in criminal law and that if as a policy matter, the Indian law on death by DUI needs to be made more stringent, that requires Parliamentary intervention and legislation.

Also, my reading of the Periera Bom HC and SC decisions do not convince me that after Periera it is no longer possible to argue for 304A in death by DUI.

See my comment at 84 again.
Seema Sapra 18 Jun 2015, 07:24
+1 -1
In the case of Arti Shetty, Mumbai Police relied upon the Periera judgments to charge her with culpable homicide under 304 (II) instead of 304A even though her BAC was only 0.014. Indian law permits driving with a BAC of 0.03. Under Indian law, she was not too intoxicated to drive.

One person died after she hit an auto and some others were injured. This was a BMW case.

http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Default/Layout/Includes/MIRROR/ArtWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=MIRROR&BaseHref=MMIR%2F2013%2F02%2F12&ViewMode=HTML&PageLabel=1&EntityId=Ar00100&AppName=1

Isn't there something wrong here in how the police relied upon Periera to charge her with culpable homicide not amounting to murder? Unless there were other facts that could justify a charge under 299 + 304 II instead of what they first charged her with – 304A ?
Seema Sapra 18 Jun 2015, 08:05
+1 -1
Here's another interesting case http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/5year-jail-for-nri-in-drunken-driving-case/article4056537.ece

An NRI Nooriya killed two persons (one a policeman) while driving drunk. She was convicted under 304 II for culpable homicide not amounting to murder and sentenced to 5 years rigorous imprisonment.

The news report states " The court relied upon the testimony of police inspector Vijayalaxmi Hiremath, who conducted the breath analyser examination. The result revealed a lot of alcohol content in Nooriya’s bloodstream, as much as 457 mg per 100 ml."

So her BAC would be 0.457, more than double even that of Gadkar. The defence claimed that at this high a BAC, a person would be rendered unconscious.

The Court response apparently was "The court rejected the Defence’s contention that at this level a person would become unconscious. Reasoning that alcohol tolerance levels varied from person to person, judge Bohari remarked, “The accused is holding a US passport. It appears she was habituated to consuming alcoholic beverages. Cigars were also seized from her bedroom.”

Actually at a BAC of 0.457, a person would be close to death. See the effects of different BAC levels I posted above. A 0.4 BAC would result in "Onset of coma, and possible death due to respiratory arrest."

What is curious is that the news report states that the BAC estimate of 0.457 was based upon a breath analyzer test. No blood test is mentioned.

There is something wrong about this case.

The news report also states "Referring to the high-profile 1999 BMW hit-and-run case, in which businessman Sanjeev Nanda was convicted, and the Alistair Pereira case, the court pointed out that the apex court had ruled that such cases should fall under the offence of Section 304 (II)."

Once again the sessions judge relied upon the SC to rule that such a case would be triable under 304 II and not 304A. I again state that I find no basis in the Bom HC and SC Pariera decisions to conclude that henceforth all death by DUI cases automatically fall under 304 II irrespective of facts. Judges cannot rewrite criminal law.

This is not to state that the Nooriya case was not a fit case for 304 II. I don't know enough facts of the Nooriya case and haven't read the judgments to comment on this.
Guest 18 Jun 2015, 12:38
+0 -0
[quote name="Seema Sapra"]Here's another interesting case http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/5year-jail-for-nri-in-drunken-driving-case/article4056537.ece

An NRI Nooriya killed two persons (one a policeman) while driving drunk. She was convicted under 304 II for culpable homicide not amounting to murder and sentenced to 5 years rigorous imprisonment.

The news report states " The court relied upon the testimony of police inspector Vijayalaxmi Hiremath, who conducted the breath analyser examination. The result revealed a lot of alcohol content in Nooriya’s bloodstream, as much as 457 mg per 100 ml."

So her BAC would be 0.457, more than double even that of Gadkar. The defence claimed that at this high a BAC, a person would be rendered unconscious.

The Court response apparently was "The court rejected the Defence’s contention that at this level a person would become unconscious. Reasoning that alcohol tolerance levels varied from person to person, judge Bohari remarked, “The accused is holding a US passport. It appears she was habituated to consuming alcoholic beverages. Cigars were also seized from her bedroom.”

Actually at a BAC of 0.457, a person would be close to death. See the effects of different BAC levels I posted above. A 0.4 BAC would result in "Onset of coma, and possible death due to respiratory arrest."

What is curious is that the news report states that the BAC estimate of 0.457 was based upon a breath analyzer test. No blood test is mentioned.

There is something wrong about this case.

Once again the sessions judge relied upon the SC to rule that such a case would be triable under 304 II and not 304A. I again state that I find no basis in the Bom HC and SC Pariera decisions to conclude that henceforth all death by DUI cases automatically fall under 304 II irrespective of facts. Judges cannot rewrite criminal law.

This is not to state that the Nooriya case was not a fit case for 304 II. I don't know enough facts of the Nooriya case and haven't read the judgments to comment on this.[/quote]

Seema Sapra,

[...]

you can still read the trial court judgment here [url]https://www.scribd.com/doc/126143294/Nooriya-Haveliwala-Hit-and-Run-Case-Judgement-Mumbai-NDPS-Court-Judgement[/url] w[b]here it states clearly that her blood tests during medical examination after the crime indicated 0.169% BH level[/b]. The judge himself has found that the breath analyser test was at fault so I'm sorry to burst your bubble.

Btw there is nothing mysterious about a breath analyser test giving BAC readings. It is an estimate based on alcohol metabolates in the breath and the voltage they give rise to. Some complicated stuff for sure. It's an indirect estimation that plenty of countries use.

[b]What does this prove?

That it's a good idea to read court judgments and not hindu.com for framing views on criminal law. [/b]
Seema Sapra 18 Jun 2015, 13:46
+0 -0
Yes, I agree that it is a good idea to read court judgments, thanks for the link. Its also good that I like reading judgments "for fun" instead of drinking and driving :)

I also wish I could read the part of your comment that Kian censored :)

I further wish I could identify the real you behind your anonymous mask.

This whole process has been fun and educative for me. Thanks for making me read Periera too, I wouldn't have but for your taunts.
Guest 18 Jun 2015, 14:14
+0 -0
[quote name="Seema Sapra"]Yes, I agree that it is a good idea to read court judgments, thanks for the link. Its also good that I like reading judgments "for fun" instead of drinking and driving :)

I also wish I could read the part of your comment that Kian censored :)

I further wish I could identify the real you behind your anonymous mask.

This whole process has been fun and educative for me. Thanks for making me read Periera too, I wouldn't have but for your taunts.[/quote]

Happy to hear that. On a serious note you have to really research more about this stuff before publishing a view. It is a coincidence that this happened to be my area of practice.

Legal arguments aside, I have witnessed first hand the terror and mayhem that reckless drivers and drunk drivers can cause. Lives are snuffed out, youngsters are maimed forever, careers are cut short. There is simply no bloody excuse for people to drink and drive. None whatsoever. Today it is Mohd Salim Saboowala and Mohd Hussain Sayaed RIP. Tomorrow it could be your kids, partner or your parents - unless more examples are made of such perps and the fear of god (and a long jail sentence) instilled in these criminals.
kianganz 18 Jun 2015, 14:17
+0 -0
Agree but I think making examples of perps is only half the story...

There needs to be a holistic effort at improving the entire system, from education, to enforcement by police, to trials and sentencing by the courts.

Just making an example out of one or two when the media is paying attention and decides the perp is newsworthy, won't change a jot other than making a handful of middle-class types not drunk drive for a few weeks until they forget again...

Anyway, this thread has been very interesting and insightful (other than occasional bit of ad hominem abuse), so let's close it for now... :)
Phatta Poster 18 Jun 2015, 11:03
+8 -0
To break the monotony, I thought I'll put up a post that someone will actually read in full.
Seema Sapra 18 Jun 2015, 13:50
+0 -0
I find your comment so relaxing to read :):):)
Phatta Poster 18 Jun 2015, 16:04
+0 -0
Wow! I got you to write a short post. Keep it up!
KnowTheTruth 29 Jun 2015, 09:13
+0 -0
Update:
"Mumbai: A court on Friday rejected the bail application moved by 35-year-old corporate lawyer Jahnavi Gadkar who is accused of mowing down two persons in Mumbai on 10 June under the influence of alcohol.
"The application is rejected," Magistrate Richa Khedkar said in her order while extending Gadkar's judicial custody till July 10."

Questions:
1. How is Gadkar more likely to tamper with evidence than our favourite superstar who was granted bail immediately on the day of the accident? It may be noted that he was never placed in police/judicial custody for a day, while this lady whose offence is similar, is not granted bail.

2.A senior lawyer was explaining the legal provisions in the context of Salman's bail acceptance in 2 minutes by HC following his conviction/sentencing by lower court.
"Bail is the norm, jail is exception".
Was this provision only applicable to Salman, and will not apply to Janhavi?

3.How much money, power, influence is required to actually make the law work for you? Clearly, gadkar has some of that, but is unable to secure bail.

4.At the moment, Gadkar is an accused. Salman is a convict. Isn't grant of bail to a convict supposed to be a bigger deal than that to an accused? If yes, why does the fround reality differ?
Common Man 29 Jun 2015, 13:56
+0 -0
Is it just me or do I see a allegation of trial by media and media witch hunt when the accused is an upper middle class individual, eg. aarushi talwar case, this case and when the media does the exact same thing on an accused from a lower income background it is considered responsible journalism or journalists doing a wonderful job. eg. uber driver, nirbhaya drivers. I didn't see anyone opponents of trial by media coming in support of the latter mentioned cases, telling the public, we should wait for the due process of the law or that media is demonizing the accused.

I think we are no different from the right wing white population of USA, who accuse black and brown people of terrorism for a crime and when white people commit the same crime, everyone is asked to hold back their reins and analyze issues like psychological problems.
kianganz 29 Jun 2015, 13:58
+0 -0
Agree completely, very good point!
DM 16 Jul 2015, 10:09
+0 -0
Kian! this is a fantastic article. Most readers have missed the point on media trial and how the 'alleged' accused should be left alone until the courts decide his/her faith. While our heart goes out to the ones who have died and suffered at the hands of a reckless driver, you cannot take away the fact that he /she has a right to fair justice. To justice that is not influenced by exaggerated media reports.

Media is meant to publish "facts" not publish a personal opinion / statement of condemnation so as to prejudice against an individual. They are a self proclaimed pillar of accountability and need to be taught where they are to draw the line!

again, everybody who is reading this article with even an inch of rationality and logic, would understand that the death of innocent people is not being undermined, what is being said is that let the rule of law prevail!

making such lucid and loose comments (especially the disguised and coward commentator "Guest") as have been done by some readers only establishes their faith in fabricated information and media publications against the dictate of the legal system.

very well said COMMON MAN! to add Barkha Dutt, Aurunab Goswamy, Karan Thapar etc are all anchors paid lots of money to talk rubbish and sell news because everybody is in the business of making money!
suddenly its time for these hypocrites to take on somebody's cause by defaming another because she has made decent money through hard work. "Poor rich girl", thats just too low Barkha, especially for your standards! you are an award winning journalist, get your wit together PLEASE!
kianganz 16 Jul 2015, 10:14
+0 -0
Thanks, agree with your points.