Ramblings of a GC & former BigLaw associate: Law firms don’t add value, they destroy it

Burning money
Burning money

While hourly rates continue to increase and add up, the quality of India’s legal advice unfortunately continues to spiral downwards. Affronted? Well, you should be.

From my now more fortunate vantage point of a senior in-house position, I believe I can look back at my law firm years with a good amount of insider know-how, as well as healthy detachment.

Therefore, allow me to relate; you can reflect and let me know whether you agree (and no, in-house is not where burnt-out lawyers go to die quietly).

In transactions, you typically use a precedent obtained while working with one of the (far superior) foreign law firms, change a few names, rework a few clauses (most likely the miscellaneous ones) and then charge a lot more than a few lakhs for it.

But that’s only for the first draft, mind you. The trick is to send an extremely one-sided first draft. Then spend a few months negotiating those one-sided provisions and circulating various iterations. And once you feel your team’s time spent has guaranteed a sizeable bonus, good sense suddenly dawns and it’s time for signing.

And if you’ve jeopardised the deal in the process, you throw our hands up and leave it to the “principals”. Or worse, blame the other side for being too daft and stubborn. I tend to exaggerate for effect – but believe me, there is more than just a little truth in this.

Diligences are easy. Round up all the interns and a few first year associates and send them to poke holes in a company that has been in business for over 20 years or so. And why levae this vital task to juniors? Because it is beneath a senior associate to be associated with a diligence, and no law firm would want to waste seniors’ precious billable hours on a diligence.

A senior associate will however review the report (without ever having accessed the data room). Some lose all their hair in the process. Many grow thick-skinned and throw it to the partner. If the partner catches on that the report has nothing but summaries of irrelevant facts (which is quite often the case), there’s no one really to blame.

But blame must be placed so a lesson can be learned and so the first years are called in and yelled at. No one really learns anything, but it’s the usual cycle involved with most diligences. The legal fees for all this (including time spent yelling at associates), is anywhere between 20-30 lakhs on average and often far more for the larger transactions.

In legal opinions, there are so many “may be” / “should be” references that the client has to set up various calls just to understand what in fact the opinion finally is.

And then there’s the new trend of sending out “memorandums” which largely have the same content as a legal opinion but are not as pricey. And partners feel they can sleep better at night if it’s just a memorandum. What legal opinions and memorandums both have in common though is the overly lengthy content, excessive references to statutes and case law and irrelevant annexures.

Then there’s the disclaimer – from capping liability to legal fees to excluding liability if statutory authorities adopt an entirely different interpretation.

And what really tips the scale is the partner in charge signing the opinion by simply writing down the law firm’s name. There is some debate on how this is technically the right way to issue a legal opinion as it is the firm that is issuing the opinion and not the partner.

Yes, that’s quite evident seeing as how it’s the firm’s letterhead and the firm’s name at the end of the opinion. So if you can’t sign your name despite all the careful language the opinion is couched in, why bother to issue one at all?

Another trend, which is now part and parcel of corporate law practice, is ridiculous timelines: timelines that clients demand that no one wants to rationalise with. Or worse, timelines that we ourselves promise just to look good.

Today, being available on a Sunday or at 2:00 am for a call is what defines a good lawyer and the quantum of your bonus. 3,000 billable hours = one big fat bonus. Quality of work however has somehow missed the bus. Probably because no one has enough locus to assess it.

Many times, you spend the entire day negotiating lengthy agreements, the entire night revising them and send them out by morning “subject to internal review”. The internal review rarely ever happens.

Often, because the partner believes his / her role is complete by flooding the associate’s inbox with 10 precedents and sending periodic chasers.

The associate’s work is complete by copy-pasting provisions from the precedents. And the junior associate is just someone who stays back to stare at the associate and the screen to watch copy-paste at its best - all in the name of “training”.

That’s if you’re lucky.

Most first year associates find it downright ridiculous to be expected to stay past 8:00 pm. They come dressed to kill, talk their ear off and all they can focus on is their SoP for their LLM. And that’s about it.

But can you really blame them? Who would want to sell their soul to this sorry state that law firms have been reduced to?

This is not some vicious cycle situation that can’t be stopped. If we could only stop to acknowledge what we’re doing, we can work to fix it. But no one wants to. “Let’s increase hourly rates instead,” the partners say. That’s a quicker fix.

In conclusion (as in a much-awaited ending to a legal opinion), this is not the case with all law firms and all lawyers. There are some truly brilliant lawyers in every law firm.

It’s just sad that they’re the exception and not the rule.

The author is currently an in-house head of legal after having spent many years at many leading Indian law firms.

Photo by Mike Poresky

Comments

pseudo lawyer 26 Sept 2013, 12:05
+20 -0
well,to an extent what has been written is true...this is what usually happens in a top law firm
Truth be told 27 Sept 2013, 06:20
+40 -9
This blog does say some true things, but this blog does not say the whole story and it does not apply to every lawyer/partner in a firm. These facts will complete the picture -

[b]1.[/b] Most companies have to outsource legal work. “Legal Department” is a necessary evil and it makes no sense to have a [u]huge[/u] budget allocation for recruiting good in-house lawyers at every level. Then, [s]to cover @$$ from regulators[/s] as a matter of policy, external counsel must be engaged for some risky work where there are no black-and-white solutions. [u]Cost/budget wins over quality[/u] and the companies tend to go to [b]cheap lawyers[/b] (unless it is a critical matter like a global acquisition or big litigation), who [b]get[/b] them [b]cheap results[/b]. In-house lawyers then blame every lawyer in the "law firm market" so that their bosses (especially head offices in the West) think it is a “jurisdiction issue” and India lacks good lawyers!
[b]2.[/b] Sometimes (maybe often?), the GC himself picks poor quality lawyers either to do favour to a friend, or to get a “cut”, or to minimize legal cost so that his performance (budget management) looks good and his bonus is better!
3. Many Indian law firms are “guilty as charged”. Big Tier 1 firms find it difficult to maintain quality across the board and hire some partners who are utter crap like retired regulatory/departmental personnel or some CA-turned-lawyer who wants to get of the CA practice. Then they have some historic junk that they somehow prefer to retain due to “loyalty” (in fact, quality lateral hires have to prove their loyalty before they are trusted). The firms do have great lawyers as well, but there is no consistency - Harvard educated lawyers and [fill name of shady university] educated lawyers are on the same team! Suave lawyers and lawyers-who-pick-their-teeth-at-client-meetings are also on the same team (often, it is the tooth-pickers who shout and add no value).
4. Getting a good team becomes a matter of luck if the client cannot do enough research or cannot be bothered to scrutinize CVs before engaging the lawyers. Truth is, most clients do not have the skill (sometimes, interest) to identify good lawyers or monitor their progress/performance. [u]This is done in the West.[/u]

[i]
[b]In a nutshell, if you want good lawyers[/b] (and compiling due diligence is the most basic legal work and there is much more complex work to be done), then [b]pay top dollar[/b], scrutinize CVs and monitor the progress. [/i]


[b]Coming to the bull$hi+ about opinions and memos.[/b] I have worked in top law firms in various jurisdictions and also worked in house. No law firm in any jurisdiction gives a one page opinion that is black-and-white on every aspect. To help clients, there is an “executive summary”. In a company, “Business” wants “Legal” to say that there is no risk in doing something and “Legal” covers its @$$ by relying on an external opinion and complaining that it is vague. Truth is, law has grey areas (even our courts change their views e.g. whether shareholders’ agreement must be incorporated in the articles of association) but "Legal" cannot say that to “Business” if they want their bonus. Anyone who has worked in-house knows the [u]business-legal tug-of-war[/u]. So just blame the law firm! A$$ covered, job done.

No doubt the big firms in NY, London, etc. are better than our big firms but India has enough great lawyers. Quality also got better with the NLUs. Then there are many lawyers who have studied and worked abroad as well. If in-house cannot find good lawyers, they need to be less lazy and work on engaging those lawyers. [i]But wait, there is no budget to hire the good lawyers! [b]So grapes are sour.[/b] [/i]

[u][b][i]And therein lies the tale ladies and gentlemen. Maybe, in the case of the Anonymous GC, ignorance is bliss (because nobody can deny the facts I've stated). [/i][/b][/u]
Guest 27 Sept 2013, 07:43
+7 -3
Perfect reply-could not agree with you more!!
Sak 27 Sept 2013, 09:53
+6 -1
Another case of Comments > Article
Balance! 27 Sept 2013, 11:11
+7 -0
Good Reply! Now the issue is addressed in a balanced manner!

Trust me... having been on both "sides" for many years and now as a senior transaction lawyer, I agree with both to a large extent.... ultimately business needs to be done and people need to cover their back sides (whether its the law firms or the in-house GC) to save their jobs..... if every thing was so black and white, you wont be needing lawyers, and if each job allowed the senior most persons in each team to be deputed, the legal bills would be a large percentage of the transaction value!
Truth be told 27 Sept 2013, 11:36
+7 -5
[b]QUOTE[/b] 3,000 billable hours = one big fat bonus. [b]UNQUOTE[/b]

Nobody logs 3000 billable hours! Even brutal US firms set targets of 2100-2400.

[b]Has our GC just written whatever s/he felt like and grossly [u]exaggerated[/u] everything? [/b]
Alias 27 Sept 2013, 12:05
+6 -1
1800-2200 hours is the minimum hours that an associate has to meet. anything over that is what entities you to a bonus. in my firm, its shameful if you are under 2,000 hours. and we're not even in the top 2.

Dont confuse minimum targets that an associate has to achieve and bonus entitlement targets.

Are you in litigation? In that case 2,100 hours would be brutal in deed.
Boo Hoo 29 Sept 2013, 15:23
+7 -0
[quote name="Truth be told"][b]QUOTE[/b] 3,000 billable hours = one big fat bonus. [b]UNQUOTE[/b]

Nobody logs 3000 billable hours! Even brutal US firms set targets of 2100-2400.

[b]Has our GC just written whatever s/he felt like and grossly [u]exaggerated[/u] everything? [/b][/quote]

Clearly you became a lawyer after the recession started...
@ Alias & Boo Hoo 30 Sept 2013, 05:30
+4 -4
I agree with both of you! But then, Indian firms typically neither have the same 'billable hours target' model as exists in London/NYC, nor is bonus or promotion typically linked to billable hours or other equitable principles (e.g. lockstep). There are a couple of exceptions, but they don't make the rule :)

My limited point is, our GC has gone a bit overboard and has also taken a myophic view of things. His article needs to be read with a dose of reality and some other perspectives should be borne in mind. [b]Bad mouthing other lawyers is not exactly a professional achievement for any lawyer. [/b]
Well Said 30 Sept 2013, 09:44
+4 -2
Very well said. A fairly incisive response to a cliched (and myopic, as someone mentioned above) view of law firms. This article seems bereft of maturity and sense that would ostensibly be expected from the desk of a GC who is (apparently) at a "fortunate vantage point of a senior in-house position". This sounds more like a rant than a rambling:irrespective, its equally aimless and in most respects a bit too pontificating.
Vikram 26 Sept 2013, 12:11
+9 -1
Lol, the author has experience and a sense of humor. Very tongue-in-cheek.
toogood 26 Sept 2013, 12:18
+7 -2
too good, brilliant piece, .... thanks for sharing...
Consider a Change 26 Sept 2013, 13:02
+3 -7
Whoever has written this has clear worked in, and since hired, all the wrong firms. Maybe they should consider changing the latter, and if needed, pay more for that (instead focusing only on "competitive" quotes, which also encourages law firms to compete on all the other counts highlighted in this piece).
Guest 26 Sept 2013, 13:04
+25 -2
Good, finally someone has spoken out the truth. I worked in some of the top firms before deciding to venture on my own to a more disputes based practice. The account on the process of contract review and DD is very correct, which any one who has been through the process can very easily and immediately relate to.

I always wondered what caused the clients to pay exorbitant hourly billings, perhaps a stamp of the top tier law firm to show to the top management, investors and lenders. Originality is missing in most large corporate practices today. The focus is on billings and the targets fixed are akin to those fixed for marketing & sales professionals. In the process, hardly few care for originality of thought and research skills. Mechanized templates rule. DDs are left to junior associates, the seniors only assigned to reviewing the summaries. Sometimes, serious issues are buried with the fear that if raised the deal may break and the client may not pay for a failed transaction. Sad but true. Hope clients wake up. It is not the size of the firm or the foreign degrees that the associates possess matters. Effective and sustainable solutions is what actually counts in the long run.
DC 26 Sept 2013, 13:26
+21 -9
If only this rant had something new in it... or a few insights into how GCs actually take steps to deal with this situation...

the fact remains that most GCs simply give the work to the big name firms, without consideration of quality, just as a CYA measure... rarely does a GC step up and hire a good lawyer who is not associated with a big brand...

unfortunately, this blog flogs the same dead horse... repeats the same cliches and ends up being as vapid as the law firms portrayed in it...
Response to DC 26 Sept 2013, 14:04
+2 -0
DC - If the so-called big brands face these issues, which surprisingly and sadly no one disputes, on what basis does an in-house or any person hunt for the elusive "good lawyer"?
DC 27 Sept 2013, 06:23
+7 -0
Hi @Response -

valid point- the fact is that is a GC trusts his own abilities, understands his transaction and can limit the role of the law firm to things that they are good at doing- for example, rapid turn around time- ability to do standard documentation quickly etc. whilst he controls the overall process and keeps a lid on costs. Further this also gives the GC far more freedom to demand the attention of a particular partner and not have his matter relegated to faceless senior associates.

Finally there are experts outside the big brands, who can do certain transactions equally well (and sometimes better). A good GC should be able to identify the resources and have the confidence of being able to extract good work from them.

Unfortunately, most GCs limit themselves and let the law firms run amuck, It is also not unusual for a client's deal team to not have sufficient confidence in their own in-house legal.

Look I am not saying what is written above is incorrect. All of it is correct. Its just that the GC community needs to look inward as well, which is what I was hoping for in this article.
Sunshine 28 Sept 2013, 02:26
+4 -0
You are right DC. I further supplement :
1. Choosing a good firm and partner is an art and not a science therefore it is very difficult to find a winning combination.
2. The best person to do the work is not always the partner but sometime or most of the times is the Senior Associate who actually does the work .
3. The ability of the GC to appoint the firm is also more often than not limited . This is for the reasons . I) the company or the parent company or the Group has an existing relationship may be for years and you cannot change it easily . ii) the managing partner of the firm is a friend of the promoter and therefore you cannot change the firm ( most important reason ) . iii) Going to one firm or the other makes very little difference they are almost all the same . iii) Even a good choice become bad when the associate dealing with the work moves out of the firm and the partner remains the same . iv) A good associate stops giving priority once he or she is confident that now you are convert client ( change of status from boyfriend to husband).
Vindhya 26 Sept 2013, 13:31
+7 -0
lol and the same partners that wont sign their names on an opinion wont let you sign off on mails with their name or as "YXZ Team" coz they want you to take "ownership"!
In House Counsel 26 Sept 2013, 13:42
+10 -0
Brilliantly written piece and it does paint a rather complete (if depressing) picture of law firms. Having made the same journey as the author, I do find it tough to find law firms who you (as the person ultimately responsible internally for the firm's actions) can trust to deliver quality advice and drafting at a reasonable cost.
Truth be told 1 Oct 2013, 05:40
+1 -3
Not easy to find excellent quality at [s]cheap[/s] reasonable rates - one must pay top dollar for top quality advice.
In House Counsel 2 Oct 2013, 20:39
+10 -0
[quote name="Truth be told"]Not easy to find excellent quality at [s]cheap[/s] reasonable rates - one must pay top dollar for top quality advice.[/quote]

Truth be told - snarkiness will get you nowhere. If money could buy me gold plated advice, my company would pay. As it stands, having used every major law firm in India, I have found that no firm can deliver premium value for premium rates. So why would I bother paying premium rates? Just so that you get your bonus?
@ In House Counsel 4 Oct 2013, 05:43
+0 -2
Look who's being snarky! Feel free to use any lawyer of your choice! But the [b]reality[/b] remians that good lawyers cost money. If you wish to ensure quality, just select the right partner and asociates by reviewing CVs. No point blaming all lawyers across the market just because you haven't been able to appoint good counsel.
kya baat 26 Sept 2013, 13:56
+0 -1
so what is new? isn't this how things have been for generations?
Parda Phash 26 Sept 2013, 14:14
+26 -3
"The author is currently an in-house head of legal after having spent many years at many leading Indian law firms."

Wow Kian, I didn't know you had so many years of experience behind you.
Guest 26 Sept 2013, 14:40
+11 -0
I agree with this. There is always a notional "work satisfaction" that is associated with law firms compared to in-house counsel. But truly its a hoax. I am currently working in-house and have law firm experience too. You waste more hours in a law firm just waiting for reviews and being blasted and it all being glorified by calling it "training" however, the independence and the responsibility that in-house counsel is bestowed with is more satisfying.

And to conclude i quote the author again "There are some truly brilliant lawyers in every law firm.It’s just sad that they’re the exception and not the rule."
ok_la 26 Sept 2013, 15:54
+6 -0
Hilarious and no prizes for guessing that atleast one firm the writer has worked at is the the delhi office of a big firm.
Anon 26 Sept 2013, 16:52
+0 -0
Wow if in-house looking down on big law firms. That's something you don't see everyday.
Top Law Associate 26 Sept 2013, 17:15
+2 -1
This is so true! Cant agree enough.
Future Expectation 27 Sept 2013, 04:08
+18 -25
I cannot wait to read the authors piece when he/she moves on from being a GC to something else. Will he/she get down to GC badgering then?

If GCs were competent, law firms would be out of business. This is a GC's way of justifying why he/she couldn't make a partner in a law firm. Sour grapes.
AC 27 Sept 2013, 05:20
+22 -0
There are many GCs who are more competent and ethical than many law firm partners who are there simply by accident of birth in a lawyer's family. Moreover, the role of as GC is to advise the board in crucial decision making based on the legal scenarios. The scope is much wider than just researching and drafting legal opinions.
Guest 30 Sept 2013, 17:50
+0 -0
Can I please see this comment?
Been there, seen that 27 Sept 2013, 05:57
+2 -0
Agree with every word. That is why I chose disputes over corporate. It sucks the soul right outta you.
Vertical Restraints 27 Sept 2013, 06:33
+19 -3
"The associate’s work is complete by copy-pasting provisions from the precedents. And the junior associate is just someone who stays back to stare at the associate and the screen to watch copy-paste at its best - all in the name of “training”."

Reminds me of my AMSS days..!
Truth be told 27 Sept 2013, 09:49
+4 -0
I think certain things happens at AMSS (and also at other big firms) because of their expansion policy and attrition rates, which naturally compromises the quality of the lawyers on their payroll. Not to mention the policy of hiring some not-so-good laterals "cheap". As they say, a chain is as strong as the weakest link. [b]Until law firms ensure all their lawyers have a certain minimum level of competence, it is difficult to maintain quality. [/b]
Scooter 27 Sept 2013, 06:50
+3 -1
So so true. But I doubt this article will change anything. I guess the breakaway firms can change the trend and improve quality. I do not want to name any breakaway firm, but they are doing pretty well. Just hope they do not become as big or busy with work that the same trend as stated above creeps in!!
Sunshine 27 Sept 2013, 09:28
+13 -0
It will take time before the legal practice will mature in India . There are large issues and gaps both in the law firms and in house lawyers .
Most of the big Indian Law firms get work not because of their quality expertise and experience but for the following reasons :
1. The managing partner is a high flyer and knows the promoter or the GC.
2. Opinion and Due diligence from a big law firm is treated as an insurance by the in house community.

A new term has come about "business lawyers" . Such lawyers neither know business nor law and to my mind most dangerous both to law and business. They are not interested in facts or law they are interested in knowing what the business wants . I thinks with time this profession will mature . We have a long way to go........................
Simple Question 27 Sept 2013, 10:07
+20 -5
I have a simple question for the author and his fans. Okay, so you compare Indian law firm partners and associates with foreign law firm partners and associates (whom you clearly admire) and make the case that the Indian ones are quite pathetic in comparison, erode value etc etc etc. Fair enough, I don't entirely agree with you but will grant that you make SOME good points (albeit in an exaggerated fashion).

Now, how about we employ that same kinda benchmark to the in-house community? Would most Indian GCs fare any better than the Indian law firm partners when they are compared to their "western peers"? Do Indian GCs and in-housers add anywhere near as much value as their foreign counterparts do? What's your take? :-)
Simple Answer 27 Sept 2013, 10:44
+0 -2
Why don't you ready one of the many many interviews conducted by Legally India and many other websites with GCs (bar and bench etc). Reading first hand what these GCs do and have done would carry far more weight than any half baked answers you will get from jobless lawyers (including me) following these comments :)
Sunshine 28 Sept 2013, 02:15
+13 -0
The major difference between the foreign lawyers and Indian Lawyers is that when you ask an Indian Partner he would say I specialize in Mergers and Acquisitions and General Corporate Practice where as a foreign lawyer will tell you exactly what he specializes in .

No Indian Lawyer or Law Firm would refuse work, no matter what his or her level of experience or expertise is in that field . That makes the difference you end up charging for research than expertise this makes them expensive and look bad .

It is little difficult for the same partner to be an expert in all fields . Indian lawyers and law firms should also learn to say no to work where they have no experience or expertise .
Guest 27 Sept 2013, 10:37
+6 -1
I enjoyed reading your, well, "opinion".

Ironical isn't it that you speak of partners of law firms not providing their names at the end of opinions and you haven't done so either. Not criticizing you. Just a thought that occurred to me.
LLM Aspirant 27 Sept 2013, 11:09
+16 -0
The associate’s work is complete by copy-pasting provisions from the precedents. And the junior associate is just someone who stays back to stare at the associate and the screen to watch copy-paste at its best - all in the name of “training”.
- That is exactly what we do (inter alia) – stare at screens (at times, shop online while we are made to wait for reviews or for no reason other than the fact that the partner just likes to stew in office), stare at the associate while he/ she formats and corrects your punctuation, copy-paste, DV compare, hope to God that your senior who has no life except being in office completes the review and doesn’t want you to rot with him/ her in office for some never-ending research or till he/ she completes review, hope your partner gives you some face-time – personally invests in you to teach you something – all this while trying to show 8 hours of work when there isn’t any or which can be completed in 4 hours.

Another trend, which is now part and parcel of corporate law practice, is ridiculous timelines: timelines that clients demand that no one wants to rationalise with. Or worse, timelines that we ourselves promise just to look good.
Today, being available on a Sunday or at 2:00 am for a call is what defines a good lawyer and the quantum of your bonus. 3,000 billable hours = one big fat bonus.
- Make that 5:00 AM. Get this, you pull off all-nighters continuously and work till the wee hours of the morning. Then what? Nobody is alert enough to analyse or even understand the stupid documents. But yes, we are there to “serve” and “pander” to clients, always, because, as we are often told, we are a client driven service firm.
Agree 29 Sept 2013, 16:48
+5 -0
Quite right on the timelines aspect. It is indeed ridiculous. Timelines are fixed and agreed without considering other priority assignments currently handled by the team in question or the complexity and extent of work on hand. The result is overstressed associates, who work only for the sake of it viz. to meet the timelines. Quality is compromised and not good for the young associates and the firm in the long run neither for the client. The funny part is sometimes the clients take their own sweet time in going through the work delivered by the law firm by pressing on the accelerator, at least as far as associates' time is concerned.
New Firms 27 Sept 2013, 11:48
+3 -2
There is some truth in both points of view (that law firms are not adding value and that it can sometimes be a case of clients not being willing to pay for the best firms).

Perhaps this is why some new / small firms (and I am thinking here of Platinum, TTA, S&R, Pheonix) have been rated so highly on client satisfaction scores in the RSG survey, getting more points than the more established firms that have been mentioned in the comments section above.

My own two bits on this - it is entirely open to GC's to stop using law firms that do this. While limited, choice does exist in this market. And sometimes it is more expensive than the existing large law firms, but surely, not by that much and not always.

Well written and interesting article with many useful comments. Well done Kian!
Sunshine 28 Sept 2013, 02:34
+0 -2
Today actually speaking there is little or no difference between a billable rates of a big law firm and spin offs from the big firms. The charge rates of Platinum , TTA , S&R or Pheonix will not be very different that AMM or AZB .
It is time that the Bar permits these law firms to publish their rates .
If an associate is paid 10 Lakhs his direct cost comes to about Rs. 500 an hour . This is the simplest way to calculate what the hourly rate of the advocate should be .
AKA... 27 Sept 2013, 14:59
+1 -5
Everything in the end boils down to your own interest whether you are an in-house counsel or an associate at top tier. Work is around you need to catch the same.
green lantern 29 Sept 2013, 03:16
+5 -0
GC, don't you have the authority to hire another firm? This sounds like a forced marriage. Consider elopement, or atleast polygamy, and get enagaged with another.
Guest 30 Sept 2013, 08:57
+6 -0
It is a well written piece. The biggest problem with law firm partners be it big or small is their unsatiable drive for money. I have had the experience to work in the Delhi office of one of the spin offs. My partner once told me that corporate lawyers are like NSG Commandoes. I was never able to understand the urgency which was attached to every work, especially when the kind of work which we got was mostly secretarial (but we agreed to do as we were paid for it in dollars). Now moving to a larger law firm, I realise that life in larger law firms are driven by the desire to do deals and not by the desire of making 5-6 crore per team in a year by doing anything that comes to you, although it tantamounts to higher earning. So the associates anywhere are expected to just work for long hours so that the Partners achieve these mythical targets at any cost and quality.

It is this scale of money that a 35-40 year old partner sees which just pushes him to treat his/ her associates as commodity.
Hi 30 Sept 2013, 09:09
+6 -0
Firms like Phoenix suck the life out of you. thats all they do.
Hahaha! 30 Sept 2013, 11:47
+1 -0
Obviously. That is because one person does three people work. Oh, also, associates also do secretarial work. I am guessing the new trend is under-staffing = Cost-cutting = More money.
Guest 30 Sept 2013, 13:06
+7 -0
Then why the gyan by the partners on how to be this out of the world lawyer, wherein their underhand motive is just to use the associate as a billing machine..I guess i have not seen 5cr in my life, when I see that I will also become a lawyer who will analyse a tissue paper sent by the client for 14 hrs in the name of detailing and then will find out at the stroke of 14th hour that it is not a tissue paper but it is a toilet paper, then will call my associates and blast them on how they do not have the efficiency of distinguishing between toilet/ tissue and will send them back to do case law research on whether tissue paper can be interpreted as a toilet paper and this will allow him another 14 hrs of billing and gyaan for associates on what it takes to be the Bolt of corporate law (by running at a speed faster than light towards 5cr a year and other apartment in the suburb).
Hi 3 Oct 2013, 04:39
+1 -0
[quote name="Hi"]Firms like Phoenix suck the life out of you. thats all they do.[/quote]
agreed
Rambling GC 30 Sept 2013, 10:47
+3 -0
the off-tangent comments here on in house v. law firms are even more hilarious than the post. like the hindu-muslim comments on almost every article (however unrelated to religion) on the times of india.

this post was only to highlight the practices of [i]some [/i]lawyers in [i]some [/i]law firms while fully acknowledging the brilliant ones out there. why so serious folks? or rather, why so defensive?
Truth be told 1 Oct 2013, 10:45
+0 -0
Here are my primary and broad reasons to rubbish your, err... ramblings:
[b]1.[/b] In the article you said there are some [i]good[/i] lawyers; now you say that the problems you’ve highlighted relate to [i]some[/i] bad lawyers. Quite contradictory and very much a [i]volte-face[/i]! It is absolutely incorrect and inappropriate to state in an article that [i]most[/i] lawyers are lamentable and only a few are "brilliant" when you state the reverse in a follow-up comment a couple of days later!
[b]2.[/b] When you take a shot at a profession, you have to justify your stand and clarify what exactly you are talking about. [i]Vague statements and half-truths[/i] are not only unprofessional, they may even be unethical and defamatory. My response at 1.1 above may indicate what I am trying to say (for example, see my point on legal opinions).
[i]3.[/i] Some of what you say is true, but neither properly explained [i](i.e. misleading)[/i] nor, when true, inapplicable to the Western firms (they issue lengthier opinions with more carve-outs and also have better templates to minimize reinventing of the wheel and maximizing revenue).

It is very surprising that you question why people are so serious, after you've generally bad-mouthed all of them, in an ill-advised article full of half-truths [i](notwithstanding what you think, there is neither anything "hilarious" in your article, nor anything defensive in what the law firms' camp is saying)[/i]. One would expect a GC to know better!

[b]Bottom line: [/b]As the saying goes, there are three kinds of lawyers: able, unable and lamentable. This true for London/NYC as well as New Delhi/Mumbai.
Been There 30 Sept 2013, 11:33
+0 -0
While one can keep praising the firms for all the client satisfaction they offer, what sucks is that the real problem is when the partners are only looking to make more money and stuff their pockets by being understaffed because that ruins an associate's life.

So, client satisfaction is short lived if the associates run away. One associate cannot work for eighteen hours a day and weekends even if paid decent bonus because that's just inhuman.
law firm lawyer 30 Sept 2013, 12:13
+2 -5
The inefficiencies of a GC (or in-house personnel) in a legal department results in approaching the law firms (albeit earning hefty pay cheques with swanky legal designations). Look who is talking!!!
AC 2 Oct 2013, 09:06
+3 -0
That is none of your business ..the cheques are being paid by the company, not your shop owner...But if you take a responsibility then own it and accpet your unethical behaviour instead of pin pointing at others.
Please 4 Oct 2013, 11:00
+0 -2
So it's ok for GCs and in-house legal teams to get pay cheques for essentially doing nothing, passing off work to law firms and then bitching about it.. but not for law firms to make money out of doing actual work?? Double standards, anyone?
Ramod Pao 4 Oct 2013, 11:33
+1 -0
[quote name="Please"]So it's ok for GCs and in-house legal teams to get pay cheques for essentially doing nothing, passing off work to law firms and then bitching about it.. but not for law firms to make money out of doing actual work?? Double standards, anyone?[/quote]
[quote name="Please"]So it's ok for GCs and in-house legal teams to get pay cheques for essentially doing nothing, passing off work to law firms and then bitching about it.. but not for law firms to make money out of doing actual work?? Double standards, anyone?[/quote]

This is rubbish. Most in-house counsel salaries are certainly 20 to 50 % lower than comparable law firm salaries, especially in the 1 to 5 year band. THE GC of a mid sized company may get paid equal to a salaried partner at AMSS but the rest of his juniors get jackshit.

On top of that pay increases within companies is so slow its like watching paint dry. 7-10% of 'Basic Pay' is increased. Plus bonus are generally limited. It's no secret that legal departments are essentially cost centres for companies and their staff get treated like dirt.

When I complained about the pay I was flat out asked to leave.
AC 8 Oct 2013, 12:40
+0 -0
Let the company decide whether a GC is worth the high salary or not. But, the relationship between a law firm and a company is that of a client-lawyer, so the lawyer must justify his work and billable hours with no if and but in this regard.
Vibhore 1 Oct 2013, 05:14
+4 -0
The problem lies in the way law firms work. Partners don't understand when a junior is given to lead a team he might be good at meeting deadlines or copy pasting work but that does not necessarily mean that he will be equally good at handling people or delegating work. When you work as a GC one gets more exposure about the commercial aspects of a transaction. What fun in modifying or working on the same drafts over and over again for years. I doubt if we have even understood the meaning of the word Lawyer.
GC- Ha! 1 Oct 2013, 07:28
+1 -7
This article is a true reflection of sour grapes! And the people commenting on this article are either not partners or work in very low tier law firms, having no idea the extent of the contribution and value-add law firm partners provide to GCs and to their clients. If it was only copy paste job, top law firm partners would not be charging top dollars to the GCs (and GCs would not be paying this kind of fees)
And yes, CYA is required by GCs. If the GCs had the balls, they would not go for a CYA opinion. Its because GCs are unsure of what they are advising to their Board of Directors. The Board can easily tell the GC to put it in writing, but in most cases you will see that the Board will resolve that an opinion be obtained from a top law firm on an issue...why not from their own GC to whom they are paying salary...? Its because even the promoters/directors have little confidence in their GC. The Promoters have nothing to do with CYA as the risk lies entirely with them, but they will still not rely on their GC. I wonder why?
Law firm - Ha Ha!! 1 Oct 2013, 09:35
+10 -0
And what about law firms who go running to a senior counsel for his opinion? In litigations - senior counsels are engaged even for an adjournment!
Vibhore 1 Oct 2013, 09:42
+0 -0
We are talking about the career of interns and juniors in law firms. If you compare partners in law firms or GCs in a company they are more or less equally good. No company would pay so much salary if they are not competent. Law firm guys don't even know how to interpret a basic balance sheet what advice they give keeping in mind the commercial aspects god knows.
In House Counsel 2 Oct 2013, 20:50
+3 -0
[quote name="GC- Ha!"]This article is a true reflection of sour grapes! And the people commenting on this article are either not partners or work in very low tier law firms, having no idea the extent of the contribution and value-add law firm partners provide to GCs and to their clients. If it was only copy paste job, top law firm partners would not be charging top dollars to the GCs (and GCs would not be paying this kind of fees)
And yes, CYA is required by GCs. If the GCs had the balls, they would not go for a CYA opinion. Its because GCs are unsure of what they are advising to their Board of Directors. The Board can easily tell the GC to put it in writing, but in most cases you will see that the Board will resolve that an opinion be obtained from a top law firm on an issue...why not from their own GC to whom they are paying salary...? Its because even the promoters/directors have little confidence in their GC. The Promoters have nothing to do with CYA as the risk lies entirely with them, but they will still not rely on their GC. I wonder why?[/quote]

Clearly GC-Ha has no idea about how the Indian legal system is organised, and how it is a closed shop, where clients have to continue using underperforming lawyers through lack of choice. Also, there exists certain rules GC-Ha would like to know about - rules which require advocates to give up their right to practice if employed by a company. As such, the opinions of in-house lawyers in India would not count as counsel opinion. Lastly, both in India and, more pertinently, overseas, there are regulations which require independent counsel opinion. Clearly lacking attention to detail but not the eagerness to mouth off someone making a valid critique.
Vibhore 3 Oct 2013, 11:54
+0 -0
As I write this comment, the difference between number of comments on both articles answers everything. People don't even want to discuss or comment on the "Law Firm - Very Firm" article.